More on Red Cross Flag Gate
Tuesday, March 5, 2013 | 12:45 PM
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PrintOn Sunday after the St. Louis Supercross, we attempted to clear up the very murky red cross flag/yellow light situation in St. Louis.
It helped a bit, but no doubt, the fires continued to rage all week. Not everyone agrees with the decision, in fact, it seems like many more people disagree with it than agree. And questions remain. Why was Ryan Villopoto not penalized after the race for his first infraction? Do red flags cancel yellow flags? On it goes. I called the AMA’s Kevin Crowther again to get clarification. At this point, the decision is done and Crowther (and the FIM’s John Gallagher) made their decision based on the video evidence they had. That’s pretty much all he had left to say on this specific incident.
“We believe the decision we made was right and we’re not going to go back on that decision,” he said. “But what we have learned, as we always do in these situations, is that you look at some of the rules we have in place and see if you can improve them.”
From what I surmise, the general confusion of the situation—giving the riders two conflicting flags (yellow and red cross) at the same time—was part of the decision. All of the riders involved were put in a tough spot seeing two different flags at the same time. Was that a red cross “no passing zone” or a yellow flag “use caution but you can pass” zone? Obviously, they decided the pass was okay, but for certain, this race will result in a fresh look at the rulebook and how the flags and lights work, and also, the red flag staggered restart. If you look through the rulebook, you’ll find several parts of this situation undefined (does the red cross flag cancel the yellow? Does the yellow cancel the red cross?). They're going to have to go through the book with a fine toothed comb to eliminate some of those gray areas.
But they won’t ban passing under the yellow flag. Crowther searched the SX rulebook all the way back to 1997, and passing has been allowed under yellow the whole time. He says that supercross is different from regular, local motocross races (which do not allow passing under the yellow). For one, lapped traffic is a much bigger factor on a short supercross track, and there would be problems if you reached a lapper and a no-pass situation at the same time. Also, the yellow flags come out far more often in the tight confines. From tumbled Tuff Blocks to bikes off the side of the track, Crowther says yellow flags often come out 20 times per race, so if you put riders into no-passing situations that often, it would wreak havoc on the race. If there’s a real safety issue, that’s why they have the red cross flag, but not every situation is that extreme. They purposely build in two layers—the yellow caution flag and the red-cross no passing flag—so different situations can be addressed.
One more thing Crowther wanted to make perfectly clear: “I can tell you that there is no way in hell we would ever let any rider, team or sponsor influence a decision,” says Crowther, who points out that he is a full-time employee of the AMA. “We are an independent sanctioning body. That’s why we are there. For us, the rules are the same no matter if it’s Ryan Villopoto or Adam Enticknap.”
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One more thing Crowther wanted to make perfectly clear: “I can tell you that there is no way in hell we would ever let any rider, team or sponsor influence a decision,” says Crowther, who points out that he is a full-time employee of the AMA. “We are an independent sanctioning body. That’s why we are there. For us, the rules are the same no matter if it’s Ryan Villopoto or Adam Enticknap.”
Then how come RC got his 25 points back after using illegal gas????
Guess he told us !
Sounds pretty sketchy to me, Crowther had his back against the wall and had to spew out the first thing that came to him, not very convincing. The AMA is not influnced by the factories? Sure!
It was a no win situtation cuz the AMA would have been bashed either way but the restart shouldn't have had any effect on how he was docked and it should have happened at the end of the race.
Yep I believe every word.
The question I still had did not get answered. If the Red Flag never happened wouldn't he got docked those 3 postions after it was over. The penalty should have taken place after the Checkered Flag, Not the Red Flag. Just my 2 cents.
@mxmofo1
As I recall the reason why Ricky got his 25 points back was because of a conflict between the FIM and the AMA
If you go back and watch the second incident there was absolutely no reason for that second red cross flag to be out (the one right before the yellows) and the guy wasn't even waiving it. He was just standing there with it stuck out while the guys in front of him were violently waiving the yellow flags. It was confusing to say the least.
Also, the AMA and FIM do need to refine the rulebook to allow for more gray areas and situational penalties. When poto jumped the double after the first red cross flag he had already rolled the triple and could see where the rider was down in the whoops on the next lane over. He in no way put a rider in danger and to impose a 1 lap or 3 finishing position penalty on that offense would be asinine. Those harsh penalties need to be reserved for those that actually create a dangerous situation like Josh Hansen's take out move at A1 or BamBam's temper tantrum last year.
I don't understand the whole passing allowed under yellow flag. Proceed with caution but passing is allowed? If the guy behind is allowed to pass then how does the lead rider decide how cautious he should proceed?
@731Chopper,, That may be true,, but there must not have been any conflict when Reed and JS got docked 25 points for the same thing? I also remeber hearing a rumore that RC had threatened to quit the rest of the series if he didnt get his points back.
Not a Hugh fan of anyone racer just like great racing, but if you have rules enforce them across the board. It was explained to us at the riders meetings that the yellow flag is an extension of the red Striped Flag when used in conjunction with one another. Both Barcia and Villipolo did a small jump (their wheels left the ground) in catching Steward.
Villioplo is a great rider as is Barcia and have nothing against either of them but if you have a rule it needs to be enforced against everyone not just some. Remember a true privateer way back that was battling the big boys that got penalized for taking a line they were using and was docked a lap for cutting the track.
White and Red Stripe Flag (“Wheels on the Ground” Flag): Indicates a potentially hazardous situation on or near the racetrack in an area that is not clearly visible to on-coming riders. Riders must proceed with extreme caution. Both wheels of the motorcycle must remain on the ground over obstacles until the rider has passed the area of concern. Passing is NOT allowed. Penalty for violation of the flag may include but not be limited to, loss of championship point(s) and/or race position(s), determined by the official.
How do you get around the censors when quoting?
Are we still on this shi$ ????????? ITS OVER GET OVER IT !!!!
Common people! We had a race, a battle for the first time this year! That's what I was waiting for a whole year and a bunch of you are complaining about it. Unbelievable!
Bring on Daytona!!!
As much as I would like CR and TC get one, I think it will be RV vs JS once again. They rule Daytona. I'll take it anyhow as long it's something like Louis!
Auuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuug will this never end???
.MXMOFO1 I heard the same thing about RC.
I seriously doubt that about RC. But I can say that I was never that big of an RC fan when he was racing and I remember being really upset about it. That whole illegal fuel fiasco that year was so dumb.
What about the restart.On James Stewarts Go-Pro footage you could hear the announcer say that there was only 2 laps completed.
Weege. Stop fronting for the AMA. It was a Bad Call. Watch the video.
And Jason, please stop with the misdirection. There is more to this incident than "passing under yellow". The entire penalty was mishandled, and it gave RV an advantage by assessing the penalty during the restart, which ITSELF is questionable. The whole thing is questionable, and it's not going away no matter how many articles you write about yellow flags.
The first question was never answered.....
Ama F&*ked up. If yellow flag meant no passing there would be no issue and everything would be cut and dry. Fix the rules and no problems!
RV should of been docked after the race. If the issue was between RV and Millsaps it would be way more controversial.
mxmofo1 wrote:
about 43 minutes ago
"....but there must not have been any conflict when Reed and JS got docked 25 points for the same thing?"
-----------------
No, there wasn't. RC was the first rider entered in a AMA/FIM event to get penalized for illegal gas. With Reed and JS it was just up to the AMA protocol. RC's team must have lawyered up and exploited the fact that they each had different protocol for testing. They got fined $20,000 instead.
I do remember RC saying he would have a hard time wanting to race if they upheld it, but i don't see how there could be proof that is why he got the points back.
To all the whiners that are saying Villo made a weak pass or he should be severly punished....
Is your favorite rider soooo weak that you want him to win on a technicality? Man up already and accept the fact that Poto is the best guy out there and will win this championship. Y'all may as well get used to the disappointment now.
The fat lady has sung. I don't have anything against Villopoto, I just really want to see Millsaps take the championship. To be honest, I would have argued against VIllopoto no matter how black or white the situation was just because it killed me to see Millsaps points lead that he had built up over eight races get cut in half even though he still finished sixth. There was too much gray area in this one to definitively call it one way or the other, and in such situations a no call is the best call, because I think it's better to give the rider the benefit of the doubt. The key for the AMA officials is to learn from this controversy and set the rules in such a way that will minimize the "gray areas".
Seriously Weege.If your gonna call the AMA ask the right question.RV said in his interview they told him they were going to dock him three places at the finish.RV said this himself.He ask why didn't they go ahead a do it on the restart.What kind of bull shit is that? Who was the DA that ok'ed that move.It should of been three places at the end of the race.Why did you not ask that question Weege? Sweep that under the rug there ol buddy.
The fat lady has sung. I don't have anything against Villopoto, I just really want to see Millsaps take the championship. To be honest, I would have argued against VIllopoto no matter how black or white the situation was just because it killed me to see Millsaps points lead that he had built up over eight races get cut in half even though he still finished sixth. There was too much gray area in this one to definitively call it one way or the other, and in such situations a no call is the best call, because I think it's better to give the rider the benefit of the doubt. The key for the AMA officials is to learn from this controversy and set the rules in such a way that will minimize the "gray areas".
OH MY GOD--Get over it babies.. MY God let it go.. The 2nd pass was fine.. If you dont like the way things are going, leave, go watch another sport.. But please quit crying..
@redrider24: RV may be the "best" rider out there. He may not be. That's not what we're discussing here. The was a serious faux pax that impacts the entire series.
I do notice the guys doing the LOUDEST crying are Stewart fans.. WHY?? He isnt anywhere near the Championship, so whats the deal with the complaining about one position for Stewie???
bd200: It's our sport. I think I'll not be leaving.
I agree with Fred, why is there absolutely no mention of the question surrounding whether he was penalized at the restart or after the race?? Nothing has been said of this at all!! Relax, bd200.....people are just curious and have every right to question the way things are done, I'm curious and it's not a JS/RV thing, It's just that some of it seems a little unclear!!
db200: You're simply wrong. This has nothing to do with JS7. It has to do with the integrity of the sport. And it affects DM18 FAR more than anyone else. There is right and there is wrong. You're just on the wrong side of the argument this time.
The people who stand by these bad calls are the ones who will suffer the greatest loss of credibility in the long run. For us amateur commentators, it doesn't matter much. For someone who tries to make a living writing about this sport, it's far more damaging. History is a cruel beotch sometimes.
crowther's statement at the end of this article highlighted the fact that he did not address why villopoto was docked positions during restart instead of after the race, they should be embarrassed, why even print this article except where he attempts to cover themselves? he makes sure to address that he and ama wont be influenced by a rider, even a prominent rider who clearly stated he asked to be docked the positions during the restart knowing full well he could still win that way, but absolutely could not win if he is docked the positions after. i dont blame villopoto, he is a racer who tries to get any edge he can, even if that edge is taking advantage of asking an official this question during another crazy restart where everyone is running around and unsure what to do
I don't think you guys understand the real reason of this article. They put this out to tell us that our opinion doesn't matter and it's not going to change anything, so, you guys are continuing to waste your time typing out that you think that RV should be penalized. I'm not saying I agree with the decision, just trying to help you guys get your time back
Our Savior and current leader of the formerly free world said, "We need transparency for us to all get along" Wait... maybe that was Rodney King! Where is our transparency AMA???
Even with the positions docked at the end if the race it still puts a big dent in Millsaps points lead. If you don't like the rules or the "grey" areas get a job with the AMA and quit whining about it.
I've been to alot of SX races and I also see yellow flags waving even when there is nothing..Also whe a rider tips over keep the mechanixs off the freekin track thats what coarse workers and the officials are for..............I see so many people inside the ropes causing more of a big stick than if they keep there asses out of the way.
@SuperSXFanMan/StarPlays4Life----YOU are talking about the "integrity " of the sport..HAHAHAHAHA!!! You have already accused Suzuki of telling Stewart not to win, so Millsaps could win because he wasnt winning....and the other day you accuse the AMA of letting RV off the hook because one of his sponsers is Monster... You just fish for reason why Stewart didnt win, its all you care about.. remember, we cant comment on people of color post you made?? Yes, I do.. so dont you dare say anything about the integrity of our sport until you show some honesty and integrity yourself..
The big question is should RV have been penalized the 3 positions at the end of the race instead of during the red flag restart? If there had been no red flag, and RV had crossed the finish line first, then his points for the night would have been 4th place points. That would have made a huge difference in the points between him and DM. What does the rule book say about that?
.................so why was RV docked mid-race at a restart instead of being docked at the end of the race?
The ONLY way realmofo can talk about anything is to somehow relate it to Stewart, or Stewart fans....that dude has a serious problem!! If you would open your eyes, you might see that nobody is crying because they think Stewart got screwed out of a position, I hear nobody doing that, what I do hear people talking about is how it was handled. Show a little maturity here and either join the discussion or just stay out of it, your choice, but stop trying to tell people what their motivation is for taking part!! If you're over it, cool...be over it and let those who wish to carry on the conversation and continue to ask questions do so!!
Understand people, the race director has full autonomy in deciding what the penalty will be and how it will be handled. That is about the only thing the rulebook does make clear. He could have decided to make it after the race but he also could have only made it one position. I have a problem with one guy having full say as to how it will be handled, but that is what exists right now. Nowhere does it say that the penalty for jumping under the red cross flag is 3 positions, he just decided that on the spot, just as he decided to do iron the restart. He could have made it a lap if he wanted.
Why should he have been docked 3 places after the race? He only passed 1 rider on the red cross flag. How did they come up with the 3 place penalty, is that in the book.
RMF has gone off the deep end again. When he has no position, he just gets ridiculous. And he almost never has a valid position. Whatever. He still thinks I'm someone else. lol
One more thing on the first offense before the restart. In all actuality, RV was way past the area of concern there. That is exactly what the rule is ....."past the area of concern". The fact that he chose to dock RV 3 positions may coincide with the fact that a restart was happening. If there was no restart, he may have reviewed video of that too and decided it needed no penalty. THAT is what is wrong with the rules as they exist. Need a clear cut KNOWN penalty for the offense, and a clear cut designation as to where the flag zone begins and ends. Obviously right now, it isn't where the first red light is seen or the "area of concern". Make it the first red light and the following corner after the entire section. That would have made both Stewart's pass and RV's pass illegal. Then it is black and white and everyone knows what the penalty consists of.
Vistajim:
Nothing is in the book. The penalty is up to the race director, he chooses what to make it. He just as easily cold have made it 2 positions or 5 positions.
B-KR - Did you watch the JS7 helmet cam? I don't see how you would claim that they were way past the area of concern. There was a guy ON the track to their left when RV was in the air. If I'm out there racing, I would have been respectful of the rules and not continued racing hard until I passed all the danger, which is what the rule is for.
Bit harsh on Adam Enticknap
@whatever -- exactly. It is the rules and their application be discussed.
From the article: "Do red [cross] flags cancel yellow flags?"... "From what I surmise, the general confusion of the situation—giving the riders two conflicting flags (yellow and red cross) at the same time—was part of the decision. All of the riders involved were put in a tough spot seeing two different flags at the same time. Was that a red cross “no passing zone” or a yellow flag “use caution but you can pass” zone?"
Why is it not painfully obvious that the red cross flag has precedence over yellow?
A really bad precedent was set in St. Louis. Whether the red cross flags should have been displayed (especially the second one) is certainly open to question. But, all the riders need to respect them. Allowing a rider to position for a pass and execute it in a red cross zone, without penalty, can only have the result of lead pack riders unwilling to slow to safe a speed.
Watch the side view replay from later in the race where RC was talking about it. JS is wheels on the ground over first jump. But then both RV and JB shoot up along side him. JS increases speed a bit, probably to put RV back where he belongs, but RV paces him. Next jump, no wheels on the ground for all three. JB drops back for a bit, but they're all still leaving the ground. Eventually, RV pushes the inside and JS lets him take it.
This is going to be in the back of all the riders' heads now -- that they will have to keep racing in red cross flag zones.
The only solution I think makes sense is to enforce single-file for red cross flag zones, or at least no overtaking.
Watch the GoPro footage of JS7 that was just posted. He doubles into the triple where the red lights are flashing & yellow flags are waiving (the Red Cross flag was waiving after the triple) can you jump over a triple (even if its a double) when the red light is flashing?..I don't think so!!! The RED flashing lights are the the same as a Red Cross flag (to be use simultaneously) ...no penalty for JS7 there???
RV's 3 position penalty was assessed it a section after the Red Cross flag. ...definatly grey area there!
There is no doubt in my mind that JS7 is the one who should have been penalized 3 positions...thought it doesn't matter now anyway.
2 things.
1. Isn't it obvious that the Red/White flag should cancel the Yellow? It is the higher powered flag, the one more concerned with a riders safety. They hadn't passed Kiniry's position, that should be the marker for past the area of concern, that much is common sense to anyone.
2 Pretty hilarious that he would say that no team or person or sponsor would influence a decision or that they won't go back on it. Um... 2004 Fuel suited the series, 2006 fuel gate suited the series. Windham Vs Vuillemin suited the series.
It'd be ok to call yourself a sanctioning body if you had any credibility, and credibility comes from being consistent and fair to the actual rules. Not what you feel like. It's mind boggling that they even came to the conclusion that the yellow zone is more important than the redwhite cross. MIND BOGGLING
@SuperSXFanMan--Are you going to deny saying Stewart was told NOT TO WIN???? I can find it for you, it was right after the race Stews clutch broke at the line.. Then you said this week that the AMA wont punish RV because he races for Monster, a big sponser.. Are you going to lie and deny that too???
@Whatever--I make it about Stewart because the main guys crying about it (SuperSXFanMan) are hardcore Stewtards thats why.. Otherwise they would not care less.. And YOU KNOW ITS TRUE.....
@SUPERSXFanMan--I know exactly who you are, when you changed your name from StarPlaya--you still had the link to your facebook, when I clicked on it, there you were, still had your twitter as StarPlaya4Life.. Since you have now changed your settings..
As several other objective commenters have stated, we still do not have an answer on why the RV was allowed to have the penalty assessed on the restart instead of the end the race. Pretty significant points difference in such a tight battle for all the marbles. I would at least appreciate an honest answer from the AMA, being "yep we screwed that one up, but we now have a firm rule in place and educated the officials so this won't happen again". Nobody is perfect, but it is annoying when people pretend that everything is fine with such a glaring question completely unanswered.
I find it pretty comical that RV was able to tell the AMA when to enforce the penalty. He is one of my favorite riders but between that and the questionable pass on the yellow/ red cross flag, it all seemed a little shady to me.
RacerX, your first question in first paragraph is "Why was Ryan Villopoto not penalized after the race for his first infraction?" which was the BIG unanswered question after initial article for me. If I was Milsaps/Rockstar I would be all over this one! Was this question specifically asked because the way this article is written either it wasnt asked, wasnt answered, or ama screwed up and told everyone to screw off. Disappointing article.
One more thing Crowther wanted to make perfectly clear: “I can tell you that there is no way in hell we would ever let any rider, team or sponsor influence a decision,” says Crowther, who points out that he is a full-time employee of the AMA. “We are an independent sanctioning body. That’s why we are there. For us, the rules are the same no matter if it’s Ryan Villopoto or Adam Enticknap.”..........Really liked this part but what is not clear is when villopoto got his first jumping/pass under red he told them when he wanted.Somebody's blowing smoke up something around here.
SuperSXFan-
I was going to go check the JS7 go pro footage and then remembered he was ahead of RV when the first Red Cross flag incident happened. So what are you talking about?
This wasn't the guy back when RC had the fuel issue, so he can't be tagged with letting his decision be swayed for that.
So, if you CAN pass on a yellow flag,, what happens if a rider is down on the back-side of a jump, and no one can see him, and two guys are batteling each other, and they land on him????
I have answered why RV was given the penalty on the restart. It is because the rules allow the race director to dictate what the penalty is and how it is handled! There is no set rule that says what happens in such a situation......it is all at his discretion. There is NOTHING that says it has to be after the race or that it has to be 3 positions. This should be changed in the future.
@Not4show,, That,,, is the million dollar question.. If two guys are batteling, there is no sense in slowing down for a yellow flag or a red-cross flag.. You can pass on a yellow, and you onlt get docked three postions on a red-cross flag.. Why slow down for these flags???
Because if you completely disregard the flags, he can decide to DQ you......and even suspend you.
SuperSuperFan:
I even tried the Millsaps footage and you can't see anything up to where RV was at that point. Not sure what you are looking at.
@B-KR,, How about I pass someone,, but DON"T "disregard the flag?? I really don't see how that's possible??
Mxmofo, everyone seems to be thinking it is set in stone that 3 laps is the penalty. The race director can make it anything he wants. He can drop you a lap if he wants. He can drop you 6 positions if he wants. He can dock you 10 seconds if he feels like it. It is all up to him. Someone might do it again at Daytona and get docked a lap for the exact same thing.
Stewart passed villipoto illegally under Red lights and a Red Cross flag so there for he should have never even been in front of villipoto end of thread
By disregard, I mean still jump the triple. You can't pass anyone in the Red Cross area. WHERE the Red Cross area is was the issue for RV passing James. You can pass under yellow and I don't see the point in those flags since rarely does anyone slowdown for them.
The rule was written not anticipating races being red flagged but its also does not say that whatever penalty regardless of a restart has to be assessed after the race they made the call to penalize him on the restart that's their job get over it it's evident that you all hate Ryan that much that you want to try and stack all the chips against him ass if they weren't already with the season he's been having
If he wins again than that just means that he truly is that much better than everyone else you guys are one rider fans and are not true fans of the sport if you did not admire what RV did Saturday not
@jeramey - I like RV, so what lol. Instead of the ama just saying the decision stands and thats it, why didnt they explain there is no precedence for a red flag restart and when a penalty is given? Im not hearing that from an official. Oh and RV stacked his own chips this season so no idea what excuse your trying to give him.
i was waiting for someone to turn it around and say stewart did something wrong, stewart did what he was supposed to do, its really chicken shit if RV is so much better that he and barcia had to make up time, im glad to see that some are questioning something that stewart was involved in, Stewart gives RV props, what does RV do in Alanta, were not worried about James its davi were worried about, that right there shows what kind of ass RV really is. Its not the first time A.M.A. or Crowther or officials has majorly had there head in there ass and it wont be the last, till sad to say until someone really gets hurt, regardless of the issue of RC in the gas he did say he was going to pull out, if you dont think that influenced any decision made at that point you havent been around long. One thing i can be sure of RV new millsaps was outside the top five, tell me that didnt influence his urgency to get james behind him, They wont admit to a mistake how would that make them look, it tightend the points up, made it a little more intence for the fans and that is how money is made. Havent heard about kyle hope hes okay. Stewart will own Daytona, and from the look on his face will motivate him enough to win out, as long as he keeps getting the starts.
@Preston, don't agree with yourself. You ARE "Whatever."
Weege - thanks for the effort to get some answers.
Of course more questions will continue to come up after the fact. Would have liked it if he addressed the main question of docking positions after the race. But, have a feeling there's no answer to that, that wouldn't dig a deeper hole.
Time to move on.... Sounds like no comments will change how the AMA conducts their business.
@rcdirtbikaction not making an excuse just saying that at one point he was over twenty points down so what more do they want to take from him to give the competition a chance at the title and yes I understand he did it to himself but that is racing I respect him for going after it while the other guys just hope it comes to them not mentioning any names here
I think some rules are made or made better when a situation arises that there was no rule for
Like for instance there is no rule that I saw that states that the punishment has to be delivered post race regardless of a restart so you can almost guarantee next years rule book will state directly one way or the other
The haters are really reaching hard on this one there is no rule that states it has to be handed out after the race so they docked him on restart he did not get away with it he got punished and they are screaming special treatment,
Than Stewart passes villipoto right in front of red flashing lights and a Red Cross flag this however is ignored but RV passes Stewart back in from of two yellow flags (which is legal in case you haven't heard by now) and all hell breaks loose and they are accusing the AMA of being biased and payed off lol
You would seriously think by reading this that there was a 1 point difference in points between JS and RV and the race was at Vegas
In the end....what this all means....Is that if Villopoto wins the 2013 SuperCross Championship.....it will have an asterisk next to it
If I were RV I'd stay as far away from Stewart as I could for the remaining rounds if he sees him coming he may want to just pull over and let him by I expect Stewart to try and clean him out in the near future
“I can tell you that there is no way in hell we would ever let any rider, team or sponsor influence a decision” Well according to Villadodo he influenced them as to how he should be penalized.
First of all, the rule says that there will be a staggered restart if there has been 3 laps completed. There was not 3 laps completed so if this rule would have been followed correctly they would not have had to dock RV 3 positions on the restart, they probably would have docked him after the race. And a restart off the gate would have leveled the field again AND there probably would have never been a red cross flag used because the situation would not have occurred. So, WHY didn't they restart off the gate? That would have been my first question if I was Team Rockstar Suzuki. I would continue to protest that rule all the way to the end of the season.
I still think if they are going to use a red cross flag then they need to use a green flag to signify the riders are clear of danger and the red cross flagged area. They should have 3 or 4 green flags stationed around the track for flaggers to use per instruction from the AMA referee.
I agree with comedian66 and I totally disagree with jeramey.
Crowther I call..............BULLSHIT !!! and I'm sure the majority do as well, really sucks for Davi Milsaps.
You know what would save you clowns a lot of typing?
Instead of typing out your long posts just type the words "I absolutely hate Ryan villipoto and want him to lose at all costs" much less typing but we get it, we really do
These guys are done explaining things, we're not going to get an answer on "Why did they penalize him during the race and not after." But I have a pretty good idea of what the answer is, and that's that they really, really, really try to stay out of changing the results after the race. History shows that--I can't recall a win every being pulled post-race at a supercross (and even those old fuel penalties only pulled points, but never the actual win).
I have a feeling that, if they can find a way to let the riders race it out, they will, and the restart made for an easy way to do that. Of course, it didn't quite work out since RV went on to win anyway. Beyond that, we're only going to get "we made our decision and we're sticking with it." Sorry!
jw621557- the rule say 3 laps completed BY THE LEADER and there had been- so they followed the rules.
The rule says the penalty is to be decided by them and it was.
The rules NEVER state what the penalty is or that it must be applied to the end of the race.
99% of the posters on here are against RV- why
WHY aren't you complaining about JS passing RV on the BLINKING RED LIGHT ???
or RD passing DM at the red cross flag ???? MAN UP AND COMMENT ON THESE !!!!!
I think there are a bunch of kids on here.
I'm for black flagging this topic and @speedshifter......
Yet another reason I prefer the outdoors. The rule book doesn't need to get brought out nearly as often. None of this "passing when there's a yellow flag, red-cross flag, red flag" single-file restart nonsense.
I think it's fair to say that someone needs to spend some serious time and energy clarifying the rules. I appreciate the follow-up, however.
RMF: You don't know what you're talking about. I didn't even have a FB page back then. Haha! You're sorta becoming like a stalker though, and it's going to annoy me soon. Fair warning.
One more thing RMF: I am not, nor have I ever used the name "StarPlaya" or "StarPlaya4Life". I do not have, nor have I ever had a Twitter account. I have never "Tweeted" anything. Ever. You need to come to terms with this and accept that whoever that other person was, I am not him / her. Now, I have explained the matter to you completely and I expect you to bugger off.
It is best that Crowther not comment further. The more he states, the more stupid and unbelievable he sounds.
Total B.S. !!!!!!!!
@davidl: "WHY aren't you complaining about JS passing RV on the BLINKING RED LIGHT ??? "
Simple. The blinking red light in a corner is to alert the riders to roll the triple following the corner. JS did that. The no passing zone started at the red cross flag after JS had passed RV.
I like RV, and thought he rode amazing. But I think he should not have passed JS where he did.
I'm a JS7 and RV fan but after watching the 7 cam I see what you're talking about. Stewie's pass on RV before the red flag zone is questionable because RV could have been distracted (respectful?) of the situation just as JS was at the end of the deal. Just trying to be objective here.
Seriously though lets please let it go and rally at/for Daytona!
I'm a big RV fan, you know, a fellow north westerner and all. But I think RV should have been penalized AFTER the race.
Soo..
Next time someone makes a pass during redflag, will he get a stop-and-go?
Let three riders by?
Obviously he cant be docked positions AFTER the race! (Since RV was not)
What?
There is a mess up from AMA with the FIM rules...I have noticed on the SX races that always they put out waving yellow flag(no jums no passing in FIM rules)...they could avoid that in certain situations(sections before the incident) were the should put out just an open yellow flag that indicates caution and allows passing and jumping...I think AMA should stick with the FIM rule book...
I agree. This is a mess. The AMA response and attitude is a clear indication that they really don't give a rip about rider safety. Go ahead and pass when there is an awareness situation, and maybe we will let you slide or find a way to minimize the impact on you. If the clear indication is that you can pass on a yellow or make up considerable amount of ground on a red cross situation, there are bound to be MORE incidents that are similar. Instead of copping an attitude and giving the race director discretion to bend over for vested interests...and then deny they are doing so, fix the rule. I absolutely expect carnage as a result of this BS stance. Why is anyone going to respect the flags now? This proves that they should be ignored. Anyone who shows any regard for a downed rider is going to get passed. Seriously the guys should start practicing how to roll faster through these situations. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong here. The AMA comes off as incompetent.
"But they won’t ban passing under the yellow flag. Crowther searched the SX rulebook all the way back to 1997, and passing has been allowed under yellow the whole time"
There you have it, case closed. Lets move on to Daytona.
Thanks again Jason. Now take a long nap and hug the kids when you get up...
@B-KR,, If the "race director" can penalize you at his discretion,, then SX has got some serious problems to deal with...
How can you "pass/race with caution? Thats not possible. They might as well just not have any flags but the white flag and the checkered
@SuperSTEWFanMan-- I am going to annoy you?? Really ?? Fair warning?? HAHAHAHA!!! YOu annoy every same person here.. YOu never answered my questions though.. You talk about integrity and YOU accuse Suzuki of telling Stewart not to win so Millsaps can win, you didnt even realize Millsaps does NOT race for Suzuki.. Then you accuse the AMA of not penelizing RV because he rides for Monster..Are you denying that too??? If you dont want to be "annoyed" then quit being a biased one rider fan-----Stew only with you..
Supercross is really no different than any other sport, the rule book is really just a guideline as it's up to officials to call it as they see fit. Look at Hockey, Football, Baseball, they don't always get it right & the officials will never always get it right, maybe we need to go to the video re-play as in other sports to determine the outcome, but we can't just blow the whistle & stop the race to figure this out, the AMA has some issues to deal with hopefully they learn from this incident & are able to make better decisions in the future, it's over now, drop the gate @ DAYTONA!
Yes, Look at NHL hockey. If they have a questionable situation; they call the "mother ship" in Canada for advice and "to make the call".
Professional sports (other than AMA Supercross) don't fly by the "seat of their pants" and punish participants randomly and as the "race director" sees fit.
This situation is pretty NASCAR like in punishment and response by those who dictate. Typical "we are in control of our kingdom" situation.
Again; Total B.S..
Maybe they need new track officials, as Crowther.. well.. sucks at decision making.
Red cross flags are still only held by the official crew and not the volunteer flaggers correct? WHY????????? This makes it impossible to have a set system where there isn't any conflicting flags.
Next point is the lights... As we all saw, Stewart jumped a double with red lights flashing, but had a big ol yellow flag waving right before it....Say what?
And the main point, almost everyone I've talked with, is still asking why RV's penalty was administered mid-race and not at the end of the race. That....Crowther decision.........doesn't make any sense, period.
So then the yellow flags mean nothing. Passing is racing regardless how fast you are going. Hopefully the AMA will remember this night, becuase the next time they try to penalize a guy, this night will be brought up. Also allowing one man to make all the decisions is stupid. I will admit, Poto is one sharp guy, "give me the penalty now", he knew 3 positions was nothing. How could Crowthers be so stupid, there again the AMA will not test the factories or those who contribute to them.
b-kr, I see the ama makes up the rules as they go. No set standards. And don't give me that bs about monster not having you guys in their back pocket. They give you guys millions. Its no different than politicians and lobbists.
I watched it again last night and RV was putting a wheel in on JS the whole way, all flags. Stewart should have came over on him and blocked the line.
Um, haven't heard about it, but Dungey passed Millsaps in the red cross flag section too...check out the video on MXA...whoooOOOps!
redrider24 wrote: "Man up already and accept the fact that Poto is the best guy out there,"
You sound like a highschool kid attacking others masculinity because they complain of SX rule infractions. I don't get the connection. Also, 2 weeks ago Poto was alluding to the fact that he wasn't good enough to do a section every single lap (or even 1 lap)......like Bubba was! The strongest, the fastest, "THE BEST" as you put it......those aren't necessarily one and the same racer(s). What does being the best SX racer mean to you?.....being second in points? Not being able to do a section of the track as good as Bubba? Cutting the track and not being held accountable?
@rmf: Well, you can't say I didn't give you a chance to back it down...
The bottom line is this.....the AMA has totally screwed up SX in general. Its a 45 minute freak show in a 3 hour long commercial. The opening ceremonies last almost as long as the actual on track time wise racing.
Have no idea why my previous post , posted 4 times....sorry.
@racepaintusa - No worries, I removed duplicates.
@Jordan--I think SuperSXFanman just threatened me!!!!
if monster energy said so then its true..
@rmf: May I suggest that you look into treatment for that OCD thing you have going on? I'm no doctor, but I think it might help. No one, including me, threatened you. In fact, if you didn't spend all your time on here calling people out - by "name" - I doubt anyone would notice you.
@superfan--I shouldnt call people out by name?? Like you have to me, about 3 or 4 times on just this thread... So I shouldnt do that?? LOL!!! Wow, what a hypocrite...
The bottom line is unless they clarify the rules, racing just became a little more unsafe because there is no way these guys are "proceeding with caution" on yellow flags or red cross flags like they are supposed to anymore. If you are focused on racing and someone passing you, you can't simultaneously be focused on the safety of a downed rider like you need to be. You can look at our society's inability to drive a car and talk on a cell phone as evidence of not being able to do two things well while driving.
Villopoto would have won or passed Scrubba anyways. NEXT