The Moment: Red Lights and Yellow Flags
Sunday, March 3, 2013 | 8:55 PM
The Moment is brought to you by Factory Effex who is a world leader in graphic kits, Custom number plate back grounds, high end Factory Wheel sets and components; specializing in cutting edge decorative accessories for your motorcycles and ATV.
Tweet
Advertisement | Advertise with Us
Share
Comment
Email
Print“That was some great red flag racing,” said one team member after the main, coating the quotes with sarcasm.
“It’s not done yet, the results are not official,” said an AMA official down on the floor, while the riders were shaking champagne.
Lots of drama during the St. Louis main event, but also plenty after it, as Ryan Villopoto’s final pass on James Stewart for the lead took place right near a bunch of waving red cross and yellow flags. Had Villopoto violated the rules? Would he be penalized?
It was hard to get answers, at first. The AMA truck was empty as race officials met with team people. I saw Rockstar Energy Racing folks come into the AMA truck looking to file a protest. While I waited for the 450 outcome, I went looking for some other riders to interview, and found Dean Wilson inside the Monster Energy Kawasaki rig. I finished talking to him, climbed down from the riders lounge, and saw Villopoto and the team watching video of the alleged infraction. I tried to play fly on the wall, but they shooed me away.
I headed back to the Rockstar Energy truck. “They’re in a meeting, you don’t want to go in there,” they said.
Finally, after some time, the results were made official, and Villopoto remained the winner. Why? After watching today’s CBS broadcast of the race, it sure seemed hard to tell. So I got ahold of the AMA’s Kevin Crowther to get a further understanding of the decision.
It boils down to the AMA Supercross and FIM World Championship rule book. Here are the rules for flashing red lights on a triple, the red cross flag, and yellow flags (all which were in use in different areas where Villopoto set up and then made the pass).
Section 4.15 Flags and Lights
a. Operational Flags / Lights
4.
Red Flashing Light:
A red flashing light may be displayed at the beginning of a triple jump or a series of jumps. Riders must roll each jump individually with no passing and exercise extreme caution until they are past the area of concern,this includes the sighting or cool down laps.
b.Warning Flags
1. Yellow Flag Or Yellow Light
:
Waving Yellow Flagor Yellow Flashing Lights
:Indicates serious hazard on or near the track.
This includees the sighting or cool down laps.
• Passing is allowed
• Proceed with extreme caution.
3.White Flag with Red Cross:
In Supercross this flag or a red flashing light may be displayed at the beginning of a triple jump or a series of jumps. The riders must roll each jump individually with no Passing and exercise extreme caution until they are past the area of concern this includes the sighting or cool down laps
Crowther and FIM Race Director John Gallagher carefully studied tape from multiple angles, and they determined that Villopoto had closed in on Stewart under the red cross flag, but had not passed him. Villopoto's bike never edged ahead of Stewart's through the red light or red cross section. For that matter, you can also note that Justin Barcia, third at the time, also gained on Villopoto through that section, leaving the lead three riders nearly, but not quite, even as they rolled the triple. However, they singled all the jumps, and no one made a pass in the red cross or flashing red light section. So they didn’t break any rules.
After the triple came a set of rollers. By then the yellow flags were out (once a rider passes the area with the flashing red light or red cross flag, and then rides under a yellow, they revert to yellow flag rules). Passing is not illegal under yellow flags, but the riders must “proceed with extreme caution.” Since the downed rider, Bobby Kiniry, was already up and restarting his bike, there wasn’t much inherent danger in that section, so when Villopoto edged further up alongside Stewart, and then made the pass in the next corner, he was not in violation of the rules, because he passed under the yellow (which is legal).
Here was Villopoto’s take on the incident when Steve Matthes asked him about it last night:
“We rolled the triple, passed the red cross, and then it was two yellow flags and then Kiniry was up on his bike getting ready to take off and that’s what the dispute is about. We had already passed the red cross and we didn’t double anything and I passed in the next turn.”
What Villopoto did, essentially waiting until he had passed the red cross and entered the yellow flag section to make the pass, was legal. So his win was upheld.
Villopoto's win was not without controversey.
Cudby photo
There was a little more drama, though. The Rockstar Energy Racing people were not looking to protest Villopoto, but actually Ryan Dungey. Earlier in the race, when a red flag came out for a downed Kyle Chisholm, Villopoto passed Mike Alessi and Dungey passed Davi Millsaps. Villopoto was penalized because he passed Alessi by doubling out of a triple with the red light on. He was docked three positions on the red flag restart.
But Dungey actually passed Millsaps in the double out of the turn, the one that came before they got to the takeoff of that triple. Millsaps saw the red light coming up, and rolled the double. But the rules say you can race up until you get to that red light. Millsaps did not have to roll the jump, but he did. Dungey doubled and passed Millsaps on the jump that came before they got to the red light. So he was not penalized. Once the Rockstar team was given this explanation, they elected not to protest.
Quite a bit of drama there—and ironically it all happened at the exact moment the season passed the halfway mark, which was halfway through the St. Louis main event. Everyone has played nice so far this year, but with the championship closing in, expect tension to keep rising. It sure was in the pits on Saturday night.
Did you like this article?
Check out ACTION FIGURE
in our Latest issue of Racer X available now.
Troy Lee Designs/Lucas Oil Honda’s Cole Seely is a man of many talents— skateboarding, BMX, import drifting … and he’s pretty good at this motocross thing, too. Page 156 .
Look for the verified symbol 
Impulse Studios
GREAT artical, and I agree completely ! We need to congratulate the AMA for getting this right for both RD and RV
How does someone obtain an AMA rule book? I would love to get my hands on one.
I guess this explains it then. As a rider you need to know the rules, because if you don't know what a rule is and another rider does, he could pass you because you just weren't sure what to do and you let him go by.
@comedian66 - http://www.amasupercross.com/rules/pdf/AMA_SupercrossRulebook13_web.pdf
well there you have it no need to beat the dead horse this week, let this be the end of it
I think that RV should have been placed third in the staggered re-start (where he was during the racing) then docked a full lap as I thought the rule states. Or at a minimum, RV should have been placed last in the re-start. JS clearly slowed down thru the whole section of flags as if they were all representative of a red cross flag and RV and JB took advantage moving much closer. I would not expect a series of red cross flags (more than one for a warning section) out on the track.
I think JS kinda got screwed.
He made a pass under yellow and red cross flags. This article is useless. and so is the AMA rule book.
Sounds like RV was within the rules. My question is when and who changed the rules to say it's ok to pass on a yellow flag, that is just plain stupid!!
So, it turns out it was legal...ok then, I accept!! I guess you could say that JS was "proceeding with caution" a little longer than he needed to, but I refuse to fault him for that!! Still, RV passed while they were rolling through a section, and JS had defended the previous full speed pass, just sayin'. I honestly wish that we could have seen how the race played out from the original start without the re-start, but I can crap in one hand and wish in the other on that one!!LOL. Really looking forward to Daytona!!
Im waiting for a "RV gapped him, hes the fastest and only man in my world" comment from mofo anytime soon. He was fastest last night, but not last week, or the week before that. He must be the fastest rulebook racer on the planet now.
RV clearly had the most speed & on that basis most deserving of a win. But, if you have to come in contact with or come in aggressively on a rider to make a pass - that is not proceeding with "extreme caution". I find fault with the AMA there. But, larger fault with the AMA for consulting teams before making their decision. The AMA should make decisions without prejudice or bias. Consulting teams before making a decision allows bias to come into play, the decision should be independent.
DanC- JS block passed RV in the corner where the RED CROSS flag was waving. RV and Barcia did NOTHING wrong with gaining or staying with JS, They didn't jump and they did not pass until RV was in the following corner. The rules say NO passing why would you feel like they say you can't gain as long as you don't jump or pass?
The fact that you can pass on a yellow flag shows just how screwed up this sport is!!
there was a red flag at the previous corner then there were two yellow flags later in the section the pass happened in the following corner- or can't you read or watch the replays ?
Do some people HAVE to find excuses to try to say it was an unfair win ?
inquisitive , have you ever rolled through a yellow light ? that's legal also. The yellow flag is to alert riders to danger and that's what it did
There wasnt a red flag in the corner, it was before the triple.....JS didnt do anything wrong in this situation, neither did Barcia.
I think the correct outcome; but james (on the podium) did have a point, he wasn't expecting it. It's probably fair to say that all times on the track you should be vigilant and have your elbows up. But like Millsaps rolling the doubles, it was sort of like a gentlemans agreement to roll-out of the throttle.
I'm not complaining becuase the better man won; but riders need to show some etiquette out there. RV2 was the man that night; he could have waited till the next corner and sitll gotten James.
Just my 2 cents...
The yellow flag isnt the big deal, its the red cross flag.
and if my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle lol everyone on here always has to try and work some angle for "their guy" as if it were them personally that got beat out there
also: @ facez - coudn't agree more regarding the talking to the teams first. This indistry is so heavily weighted by the involvement of major OEMs and Sponsors. Of course if they go speak to factory kawi they are going to threaten to fight it or legal action if they don't conform.
Make your decisions, and then stand by them. Don't try and bend/warp the rules to suit the situation. It should be black & white.
The red cross flag was before the triple and another one at the last roller before the corner, that was the no pass area, RV passed JS after the second red cross flag only just though.
Just to clarify... The AMA has decided that the 2nd white red crossed flag wasn't there...
Or That RV wasn't allowed to pass between that and the waving yellow flags...
Because if that was the ruling, that's fine, but hows about we get some professional flaggers or more training than a hotdog and a shirt so that everyone is playing by the same rules...
http://p.vitalmx.com/photos/users/15018/photos/65034/s1600_Screen_shot_2013_03_04_at_2.21.16_PM.jpg?1362367319
@ faceaz and toothperry
JS appeared to put a fairly aggressive pass on RV coming out of the corner with the Red Cross flags up? Let's keep things in perspective shall we.
The second red cross flag was there, you can see it on the video.
Funny how some people are completely unable to make an objective decision even after a clear explanation. The pass was made legally under yellow flags. Watch the CBS replay frame by frame. The pass was made well beyond the red cross flag, and just after the second of two yellow flags. Kiniry was on his bike. It's obvious unless you hate RV or have a man crush on JS.
This has been my point too! He did it right next to a Red Cross flag. It's totally biased by the AMA and ruins our integrity as a sport. It makes out to be a Wwe kinda sport, no wonder why we can't have live coverage. Supercross is just weak and will always be second rate to a stick and ball sport in the public's mind's eye.
looks like a red cross to me
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/554880_4953653612583_314884073_n.jpg
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4953653412578&set=a.4953653132571.1073741825.1636209695&type=1&theater;
thats not where the pass was made so what is your point?
http://www.amasupercross.com/rules/pdf/AMA_SupercrossRulebook13_web.pdf
Guys -you are incredible !! RV did not pass and wasn't past JS in the photos JUST posted- HE DID NOT PASS TIL THE CORNER ! ! You guys are so biased WATCH it READ the report- he maintained his position all the way through the section and had the inside and took it - IN THE FOLLOWING CORNER the photos only back that up - LOOK at them RV was BEHIND in the photos
THIS is unbelievable
Ripdown:
I agree JS's pass was aggressive. But, to try & make the rules as clearly defined as possible. The areas defined by the flags should start @ the point of passing the first flag, to the point the last flag is passed. You need to try & eliminate any gray areas to avoid inconsistency & eliminate bias. JS had passed RV before the first flag @ the triple (unless there was one before I didn't see) & RV's pass was before the last flag.
RV would have won regardless. But, he could have made a better decision on where to pass.
My issue is with the AMA, not RV, JS, Barcia or Dungey.
Cant say it any better then Lc4rc did,So on to daytona and see how they drop the ball on this one.
http://p.vitalmx.com/photos/users/15018/photos/65034/s1600_Screen_shot_2013_03_04_at_2.21.16_PM.jpg?1362367319
Clearly at the flag when pass takes place! AMA stop turning blind eye to cheaters and rule breakers!
the last flag was yellow where passing is legal so what is your point?
how about we talk about the fact that there shouldnt have even been a red cross flag in the first place red cross means a guy is being tended to by medics now the whole time kiniry was sitting on his bike trying to get it started with no medics around so there was absolutley no need for anything other than the yello flag which if that were the cases stewart would have been passed (legally) even sooner
lc4rc you are an idiot rv doesnt pass till they make the turn and I dont remember them turning into the tuff blocks quit trolling already
Lc4rc- thanks for yet another photo showing RV behind JS at the flag !
If you think the pass was made "right next to the red cross flag" then you didn't watch the race on CBS. Yes there was a flagger standing beside the track with a red cross flag after the triple near the second big roller. Then about 15-20 feet later there was an official standing beside the track waving a yellow flag. Another 20-25 feet after the first yellow flag there was an official standing on the track waving a second yellow flag at the end of the rollers behind Kiniry. That is where the pass took place.
I would like to see the Red Cross Flag rule require riders to ride single file, just as they line up after a red flag. Then, as they leave the Red Cross zone, they can resume racing.
As far as the Yellow Flag goes, no passing should be allowed. There is no way to reconcile "proceed with extreme caution" and "passing is allowed." You simply cannot have it both ways. If passing is allowed, racing is allowed, and the Yellow Flag is purely advisory and has no real meaning, and it will not slow riders down.
This will definitely bring a ton of controversy! I think RV should not of been able to pass under those conditions... I can't believe he had the balls to especially after getting docked once already that race! Any ways I'd appreciate if you guys checked out my new video to get your minds off things! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM4BKEX1Nq4 Thanks! Like us on Facebook!
I don't believe the situation was QUITE as simple as Weege would have us believe, and the outcome is debatable. Still, it's now in the books. What I don't like is announcers being biased. IF RV had been penalized correctly for the FIRST infraction, they would have left him where he was and assessed the penalty AFTER the race - according to the rules. He would not have won, under any circumstances, because he would have been docked 3 positions. Doing it in the middle of a race is unprecedented. The penalty (the first one) - should have been calculated after the race was completed. Weege, let's not brush over the details.
Crusha, the problem wasn't with the flaggers. It was the AMA guys displaying the red cross flags. Only AMA "officials" have the red cross flags and all of the races I have flagged we are told by the AMA that they are only used on the triple jumps to shut them down at their discretion. I think what was confusing to the riders was seeing the red cross flag somewhere other than the triples. And we do get a shirt but no hot dogs. I hope Daytona is dry this year.
@477 that may be what is needed but until than the rules are the rules and RV was well within the confines of the rules
people just want to crucify him because A. they do not like him and B what happened when he passed alessi which is kind of another grey area because they say no passing til you are past the zone or whatever and RV thought he was out because he was already past where the rider was I mean for christ sakes he was the fastest rider on the track does he really need to cheat to get by alessi? the answer is no it was borderline illegal and unintentional the rider was down on the triple which rv rolled than once past doubled the last part
Butthurt James Stewart fans ahahhahaha
James got owned, RV took that boy back RC school.
What RV did was legal. Stewart fans will never accept it. WHo cares about them though. James is not a contender for the championship nor will he ever be a champion again. Let the Stewart family cry their way ouot of this sport and take his fans with them.
RV owned St. Louis like it owed him back taxes.
Dungey doesn't know you have to be infront of people to make up points.
James will cry and breakdown on the podium by Salt Lake.
Davi will crack.
James Stewart fans will cry cry and cry.
The rest of us will keep our Dic** in tat and laugh at the rest of you with that big ol puss in between your legs.
:)
The ruling was shady at best, I really give a damn who wins. I just want us as fans and riders to see why we'll never be taken seriously as a sport. It's asinine decisions and foggy rules like this that taint the sport. The pass wasn't completed until the corner but well in progress before the cross flag. I hate Wwe because its so fake and we might as well and SX to that same category nowadays since its only justify its own sponsors.
Yeah he didn't pass at the flag, but they hadn't passed the downed rider's position either... Which seeing that was what the flags were up for, you'd assume AFTER that is the position that you are allowed to pass...
And you'd also think that given the white/red flag is a higher ranked flag you'd have to obey that if both are being displayed
But you shouldn't assume anything where the AMA is concerned... I've still got a twisted tit over 2006
Super SX Fan Man: Great Post - excellent point. Penalties have always been assessed after the race. I can see how it being stopped added some ambiguity. But, the AMA needs to remain consistent.
@davidl......you keep pleading your case as if it is crystal clear, and it's not!! The bigger point is that regardless of legal or not, it was kind of a chik'n s h i t move on his part, as somebody else said, isn't there a little bit of a road rules, code of honor thing out there?? They were in a good back and forth battle, RV had passed him and JS got him back, then he makes the pass while "rolling" through a yellow?? Legal or not, I call BS on RV's decision to do it!! I'm sure you wont see it that way, but still!
Watch the Vital cum bucket morons completely ignore this article and keep on going to just hate on RV.
Haha love it.
You know RV is the #1 not only by his number plate and being a bad ass. But the whole world full of haters love to talk about him and criticize every little thing he does. It proves that he;s the best and the number guy in the world in our sport.
if it was J-law he would have had to Pay a Fine$$ and docked a Lap` Blowhards!
AMA needs to reprint the rule book and makes the rules more clear. It was a shady pass in a section with 2 Red Cross flags. James was being respectful, and RV was more concerned about winning. I bet James never let's it happen again..
It was a much better race than we have been seeing.
The real issue here is the first pass, why dock him 3 positions? Why not 1, or 5, or 11? The rule is a lap or points. Obviously the rules don't matter, so I never want to see a black flag again or the AMA is a hypocrite
Racing and rules will be a lot more understood once Stewart and his family and his fans leave the sport.
This would be a non issue if it was James or Dungey or Davi.
Just a bunch of RV haters.
And i love it. The fact that people get mad thinking about him and torture themselves to see RV win and make millions. AHHAHAHHA
I feel that this spells out that RV passed under the yellow flag, which is legal in the rulebook, so I think that's all pretty clear. Appreciate you checking this out, folks.
But I see the other issue now that I see some of the feedback. Should they have penalized him (for the first infraction) during the restart, or after the race? I'll see if I can get more insight into how that decision was made. Thanks.
Dang there sure area lot of nerds on this message board...
Why is passing OK when there is a yellow? I read the rule, but that just doesn't make any sense to me. If the AMA truly cares about rider safety, THAT should be changed. If there is a wreck out there, be safe and get past it. You shouldn't penalize a rider and allow them to be passed when they are trying to be safe and not escalate something into a red cross situation. No other racing series that I am aware of lets you pass on a yellow. It just doesn't make sense. I don't know about Dungey being allowed to double in to a red flag area either. No personal motivation here, but keep everyone safe and race on the green.
I don't dislike Villopoto, but his cheerleaders are quite immature and talk like middle school kids. Stewart fans aren't nearly as childish, but both are annoying.
Jason (Weege)
Great article. You're the best moto journalism has to offer. :)
But you can't take a lot of the feedback here to much weight. Most of these guys will deny anything. Not because of the rules, but because they are a fan of another rider, so no matter what happened or what will happen shouldn't even be discussed because they will want the worst for him. What you are looking for his unbiased opinions, and the truth is you wont find them here.
Stewart fans want him DQ'd a whole race, some want him minus a lap. Some want even harsher penalties.
What should of happened is what exactly what they did.
This series does not have the structure, points wise, to play NASCAR. The series are to short and the rules aren't as clear. Do we really want championships decided on something as minor as a one foot lead with a front wheel in a questionable spot where there was flags that shouldn't have been? Or a simple accident or mistake by a rider? The answer is NO.
What the AMA did was perfect for our sport and it's structure. IF they want to play NASCAR and dock points and races well then they can throw the whole "race to be a champion" marketing out the window.
Fans want racing Weege, not pissed off fanboy politics because there rider got beat.
Great write up Weege thanks clearing things up.
just rewatched it...at the entrance to the bowl turn where JS passed RV there was a post with flashing red lights. The flag was after the turn. So JS passed between the red flashing lights and the flagger (not sure of the rule pertaining to the post for the red flashing lights). RV passed JS after the last roller. The last flagger (waving yellow) was standing on the roller. When they replayed it, they have a great roof top view so you can truly see where everyone is. The problem with the photos posted above is they are from photogs who are using long lenses. They compress everything and make it appears things are closer to each other than they are. Be objective (or at least put your favorite rider on RV's bike) watch the above the track replay and it appears very clear no issue with what he did.
My question is about the first incident. There is a red flag at the begining of the triple. RV rolls the first and double the second and third. But there are no flags or flaggers. The only flag was the first. If you don't see another flag is it ok to start racing. The view was tough because it was from across the stadium but I watched it twice and didn't see any other flags.
While RV was on it, and I believe he would have beaten JS straight up had there been no lights and flags, having watched the pass, I think JS was a bit screwed by RV and JB using the flags to roll up practically level with him, on the inside. Maybe a mistake by JS? but they had all passed the last flagger and so a win is a win.
For those who think that SX/MX is a mr. Nice guy sport, it's not! Those boys get paid to win and they'll do whatever it takes and I respect that. Should RV, or anyone in that case, go" excuse me, may I pass you please?" I don't think so lol. You use anything in your arsenal to make a pass. Trying to keep it clean in the beginning of course and if that doesn't work, trade some paint! That's the way it always was! And I hope it stays like that. Pussification of this sport has to stop! Lol
As far as RV being golden boy for AMA, don't know about that one. Stewart was and is golden boy, that's for sure! How about his pull over attempts some time ago??? That was felony and he never went on probation by AMA! While Jlaw turned some rental car over and went on probation for the season. So don't jump on any "golden boy" conclusions so fast! Not hating on Stew( kinda like what I'm seeing out of him lately) just stating the fact!
I think Reed and Dungey got the biggest advantage from the flags.
Controversy over. Thanks for clearing it up!
RV put himself in a no win situation twice, (by skirting or breaking the rules, he is subjecting the aMA officials to undue scrutiny), and by doing so he won the race. Like I said before, he walked away with the trophy but lost my respect.
Lc4Rc
Best thing that could happen to this sport is if like minded folks like yourself left and never looked back. Please, i beg you. This sport is bigger and better then ever. People like you and mxstyle are just not made out for this sport. It's for men, not people like you.
A lot of interesting comments on here tonight. I am kinda lost on the first infraction of that red flag and how it played out. It was still a good night of racing and the tightest its been in awhile. Hopefully Kyle will heal up quickly.
please if the roles were reversed meaning JS winning with all the flag infractions instead of RV the damn hoods and ropes would of came out. and thats no bullshit ive read all the post james is dangerous he going to hurt someone he doesnt belong out there on and on. Everything that
the AMA didnt do to RV
@DRHLRacing, I guess the switchblades, nines, gats, gauges, tec-9s, AKs (NWA etc.) and carbines (Ice-T) came out this time, since RV won.
Next time JS gets preferential publicity or gets away with murder in some way, the hoods and ropes can come out.
You're so weak of mind to suggest hoods and ropes. You people believe any conspiracy theory that comes down the pike.
Another dirty move by Dungey. They need to ban him before someone gets seriously hurt.
I'm still working on that sarcasm font.
they would of done to JS as for little red winning anyway bullshit if not for the drama and restart james would of finished were he started in fisrt place if you can can make a pass on yellow why even bother to have it passing is racing how do you pass but proceed with caution why didnt they tbey dock RV 3spots at the finish because now tbe points are closer tbey can use it to there advantage in tickets and TV. Think im wrong think back when RC was not penalized on the whole fuel issue he said if they dock him theres no use in him finishing the series because the champjonship would be out of reach. seems AMA picks and choose depends on the rider and team.
Finally some good racing! It's a shame that it was overshadowed by poor flagging, officiating, and a horrendous CBS broadcast. Can anyone argue that the final results don't reflect the riders performances? I definitely didn't want to see Davi lose that many points in one night!
Can't believe that we had to watch 10 mins of coverage of Josh Hills stupidity then they started the main on lap 3 with the restart. WTF? It's no wonder that SX/MX fails to gain fans.
Must say that at first I thought it was James sleeping..but seeing that red cross flag does make RV's move super shady.
The overtone of all this though is definitely negative, and is aimed at the AMA. I remember the 2006 RC scandal..and too have not gotten over that one. I also agree with many that the rule change of passing allowed on yellows makes our sport look bad. It is also evident that the AMA pick and choose when to enfore rules (when it involves guys in the championship chase). Also agree that the gentleman etiquette has gone (in the 90s they would let a guy go by if they thought they had passed in a yellow illegally..i think either k-dub or yogi did it in 98 or 99).
BTW, It's nice to see that Jason reads the comments from his articles. I hope that Matthes does the same. It's nice to read some decent focused, unbiased journalism.
@Persona, u r full of s..t period! I don't agree with the RV pass either, I don't care what the rule book says, it was shady, there are some un-written rules in the sport too & that is one of them! JS could have won this race but he slowed down & waited to get through the flag section, unlike RV who had no concern for the flags, his only focus was to pass JS any way he could, he may have won anyway but he should have passed somewhere else!
New form of brake check coming... See the Red light/Red cross, randomly slow way down to get cause competition to pass, then motor away while the others deal with the penalty...
New form of brake check coming... See the Red light/Red cross, randomly slow way down to get cause competition to pass, then motor away while the others deal with the penalty...
If Stewart had passed anywhere near A legal yellow flag , we all know he'd have been persecuted. I'm not a js7 fan but appreciate his skills and I see some here still to this day claim that Stewart pulled over multiple drivers impersonating a police officer (his passenger turned on and setup a temp set of flashing lights , they didn't pull anyone over)
Bottom line Stewart can't win, actually this is making me a js7 fan after hearing js7 on pulp last week , he's definitely humbled though here all will probably say Matthes is on Stewart's nuts...
Anyone still care to comment on Stewart passing RV with authority after a flashing red light in the previous corner. All along I thought it was idiotic to have zero warning until the first flag but the first warning was actually before that pass was made. Go check the video and see the big flashing light on the left ENTERING that corner. To me the two even out. Still don't get the restart penalty and why that was handled that way though.
@Jason Weigandt; This is called, "Above and Beyond the Call of Duty" for you to provide this information to us, (Keyboard Kritics). And we appreciate very much, you putting in the OT to clarify these muddy issue(s).
Surprisingly enough, it is the way it appeared to me, after a few rewinds, so I am OK with the outcome. Although, there are those who I am sure would like to have seen things come out differently than they did. Whoops!
Once again, thanks much for the extra effort and clarifications on what could have been called hastily, and with and entirely different outcome.
Calling Daytona, Come In, Over!
It's just not fair. RV can read, so he knows the rules. Not everyone has that luxury.
Hey, girls! Tampax is on sale!!! Hahaha
@ Weege
What about Kyle Chisholm update???
You can pause the broadcast right as RV2 is making the pass on the inside of the corner. The camera shot is looking down the lane so the riders are coming at you. You can clearly see a red-cross flag in the middle of a few Yellow flags.
...I think RV2 was pissed at the Nancy move JS7 put on him in the corner before. RV2 would have also easily passed James without the red-cross flag.
What is painfully obvious here is that the contingent that dislikes RV wants him to not win by any means. The real issue is they can see what happened from 6 th (actually 7th as Dungey passed him on the restart) and the writing is on the wall at 12 points down. A 3 position docking back to 4 th wouldn't be a big enough penalty, because that is only a 7 point change. Anything less than a DQ would not suffice for RV's wrongdoing.......and I get it, because the roles would be reversed completely if Stewart and RV's roles were reversed. The comments would be identical, except swapped between the commentators. I would rather see them race than have outcomes decided in trucks late in the night. Just as the refs put their flags in their pockets in the final moments of a Superbowl, and just let the players play. Who wants a Superbowl decided on a ticky-tack pass interference call? Same here. If RV jumped the triple, go ahead and throw the book at him. He wasn't even close to creating any danger for Kiniry. In fact, Reed was the guy furthest to the left and closest to the "area of concern". He can also be seen roosting through the section, as they all were. Bottom line is no one was rolling the jumps as they are supposed to. All were scrubbing, locking up back wheels, and roosting down the downsides of the jumps. ALL NOT what you're supposed to be doing when rolling the jumps. RV passing Stewart created far less danger than all of them roosting towards the downed rider. And I'll continue to point out that Stewart passed RV after the first red light which is more blatant than passing in the corner AFTER the downed rider. Plus he did it with contact which could have knocked RV down and sent him back to 10th place......and almost did. I would think RV was a little pissed entering the section to begin with, yet he passed with no contact.
Can anyone explain to me why villipoto was docked positions on the restart instead of the final results? I've been docked at local events and they didn't stop the race so I had a chance to make up for it. I understand the restart was coincidental, but if not for that he would have been given 4th place correct? This is the real issue in my eyes, or am I misinformed or stupid or both?
Clearly one marshal were waving the white flag with a red cross in the section where Villopoto passed - over the rollers right before the corner. No punishment? Seems the AMA is more concerned with keeping the excitement alive, than playing by their own rules.
Edit: I have now found out, that the white cross flag, "was not there". It was only yellow. In that case, the AMA was right. But how were we supposed to know that? :-)
*
BKR - you are dead on !
Thank you RacerX for the info. RV... Man on a mission!
Same here, thx Racer X for the clarification; lots of good comments out there. I'm not a RV fan and was pissed when I watched the race. But he followed the rules, and flat out won the race. No question who was the fastest. He won fair and square, darnit. And unfortunately RV sure looked to be champion material. May the best man win, and he was the best Sat night.
I really feel for you guys who didn't get to watch. That happened with my local CBS station in Austin a few weeks ago - man was I furious when I expected SX and instead got a 700 Club telethon. Not sure if a cartoon would have been better - they should just put on "Heidi" next time they are going to disappoint the fans like that.
The Heart of a Racer.
its clear wich posters understand what it is.
RV and JS both have it in their veins and all the rest of the Boys.
you cant be out there if its not in your veins.
on another note...Weege said in another article yesterday that the track was still not to technical....I vote that Weege himself put the GoPro on his lid and do the Lap for the broadcast. hehehe.
@preston calls a name again and a racist one at that big surprise..
Alot of crying on here, mostly from Stewtards like THETOOTH (he must have only one) and SuperSXFanMan/Starplaya4life racist----So its the typical guys....the guys were giving it last week. calling guys "butt-hurt" now they cant take the fact their guy got run down and passed and gapped...it happens, so they make more excuses for Stew, there is always an excuse from the Stew fans, ALWAYS... Never a "That guy was faster this week" NEVER--even the TOOTH tries to say Stew was faster in Dallas and Stew didnt even race the main, he is using practice times HAHAHHAHAHA!!!
We finally got some great racing, on a great track, and guys are still whining.. give it up, nobody cheated, your guy got run down and passed.. RV put 3 more seconds on him before it was over..I guess that was illegal too???
As far as the first Red Cross flag issue, if there is no second flag in the section, how do you know when it is safe to resume racing? As for the second, I would have really like to have heard Stewart follow up his " he kinda took me by surprise" comment with " but I should have been able to run him down.....and I didn't". I feel like Vilo would have passed James anyway. I wish he would have waited just a little bit longer until he was without a doubt out of range of the questionable area.
I also feel like you should not be able to pass under a yellow. Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.
The main point I see is the rule about"no passing and exercising extreme cautioun until they are PAST the area of concern".
Kiniry is the area of concern. The red cross flag wayyyyy back there is still in play until they are past Kiniry. He was in the corner, so they should have exercised extreme caution and no passing until they were past the corner. Never mind the 2nd red cross flag closer to Kiniry which we have all seen now. Never mind RV did this already in the same race prior to restart.
Running up beside a guy who is practicing extreme caution and passing right at the "area of concern" is against the spirit of this rule. Whether it's RV JS or Jeremy McGrath, the rule should be the rule and from my oppinion, it was broken.
I would love to see the overhead camera shots. Where can they be seen?
It's not about James winning for me. RV was clearly better this night. It's about right and wrong and the next time a red cross flag comes out. Do you think James is going to be as courteous and cautious next time? Who could blame him?
@ Aaron Hansel....thanks
Don't bother having a yellow then AMA. What a joke when you can pass on a yellow. Get rid of the blue flags also. Just use a black flag when you want to
pull someone off. Red cross flag,......nahhhh, don't bother. Cheezy all the way
around.
A lot of the commentary here has no basis in reality. Get mom to put a DVR in the basement. That way when you sober up you can watch it again and see what really happened. The AMA got it right.
Can you imagine the weekly mayhem if there was no passing on yellow? There are yellow flags on some portion of the track for a majority of laps every week. It would take a week of tape review to figure out the violations and penalties. It would be fun to see team tactics with riders falling on purpose drawing yellow to help a teammate. Pit boards would be filled with "hit the dirt" messages.
There were two issues that should be addressed from this race. One is the improper use of red cross flags for the Kiniry crash. It was a yellow flag situation. I'm not sure how it is determined when to use the red cross flag but it was wrong in this situation. The second is the way Ryans penalty was executed. He should have been docked positions at the end of the race. While this may just be an unfortunate result of the confusion at the time, there is a history of top riders avoiding penalties that could affect the points standings. I seem to recall RC avoiding the point deduction for a fuel violation a few years back.
The results are final. No use in crying over spilt milk. Let's hope they fix the mistakes and move forward.
That whole second red flag scenario was so touch and go depending on where you saw it from. I'm not really sure where I stand on all that, too much confusion with the rules to administer a championship altering penalty to anyone though so I agree with them leaving the race results as is. I'd be quicker to jump on RV about his judgement had Stewart not slammed him on the red light/flag in the corner before the carnage, I feel that may have had some influence on RV's decision to hold the inside on JS on the yellow. Let's also not forget Barcia and Reed hot on both their heels as well, and the flag controversy as far back as Millsaps/Dungey. Lots of confusion, I think there needs to be some serious clarification on flags and they all need to be told to tone it down when the flags are waving.
Remember last year the whole issue was did RV see the flashing lights. Did JS see the flashing reds before the corner? before he made contact with RV? Why didn't JS stay in the racing line in the corner RV passed him? He totally opened the door. How about Barcia running it up on RV rolling the triples (it even looks like he may have ran into RVs rear tire). How did 4th, 5th and 6th gain so much time in a red flag section. Both RV and JS left the ground off one of the rollers (once they hit the yellows).
As far as the first issue (the only real one) is RV should have been penalized after the race. The AMA took advantage of the situation (the restart) so they would have as little affect on the points race as possible. Not the right thing, but it's their call.
Daytona!!!!!
I thought I heard the Goat say you can't pass on a yellow. Either RC don't know the rules or remember them. So I guess we have Flag Gate for this week. RV was clearly on a mission for Saturday night.. I would have been cool to see James get another win, but didn't work out. I was just a bummer ro see Davi give up some many points. So does the AMA fold under the pressure of the factories?
Wow so many haters on someone else's opinion! We are all entitled to have one whether you've raced mx for 20yrs like myself or even if you've never been on a bike. To say anyone needs to leave the sport is terrible, this sport will never make it to the levels of coverage it deserves with low blows being dealt by each other. The AMA clearly didn't define the ruling evidenced by rv's Monday convo, saying Red Cross is entire straight. Also js7 seemed mighty confused by the whole thing on his post race recap on his site. Anyways it's over and done with just like the replacement refs ruling dual possession against the packers and Seattle made playoffs because that game. We will have to wait and see how the championship plays out now and who knows hopefully it comes down to Vegas.
Move on flag-gots
Okay, so this really sets the precedent for guys to do whatever the hell they want under yellow flag. It may as well be red-cross flag or nothing from now on because this undermines the safety benefit of the yellow flag.
my only problem with this is rv should have got his 3 position penalty at the end of the race as if there was no restart. Not at the restart with 17 laps to make it back. Thats what the protest should be. Its seems to me that feld and ama are protecting the series main sponsor and their best rider.
Yellow flag means use caution. It is only to let riders know there is situation they need to be aware of. Riders are in full race mode under yellow. If you pay attention, there is a yellow flag out on a majority of laps during each race. The sport would be ruined if there was no racing under yellow. The rules and penalties regarding red cross flags and red lights is what is at issue.
AMA got it wrong. Don't they have to clear the obstacles that the medical flag are on? He passed him on the last roller...before the corner. Additionally, the AMA makes up the penalties as they go...and in order to favor the big names. I don't agree with the 3 position docking after the restart either. Should the penalty be for the restart or for the entire event?
Am I missing something here? If you watch footage of the race (readily available on youtube), you can clearly see a flagger holding a red cross flag AT THE END of the straight where RV made the pass. While there were also yellow flags present, doesn't a red cross flag over-rule them? Not sure what video the AMA reviewed...
As I read all the comments from the Monday morning bench racing morons, disputing rules and how they would be interpreted if it was their rider, blah blah blah, I find it disappointing that this is the fan base of this great sport. Bottom line is that the first infraction was questionnable as the riders were clearly past the danger zone, I know because I was there. We know RV would have passed Alessi either at the end of the following rhythm section, just like the move he made to pass other guys there later in the race (jumping into the berm entering the whoops-go watch the race, you can see it for yourself) or in the whoops. He didn't and doesn't need to cheat to win. The rule book is what it is, and can't possibly account for every situation, which is why the AMA/FIM ruled that way they did. It would be a tragedy for our sport and the fans to have what may be the best championship battle be determined by a literal interpretation of a rule that clearly doesn't address all the specifics of the situation. As with many things in life, there are gray areas and guess what, rules are simply guidelines in sport, they get broken and bent all the time. I for one like both riders, because they race to win and they want to race the best guys and beat them. The fact is, RV was the better man in St. Louis, just like James was in Atlanta. If RV could catch him from a 6th place start, pass other top guys like Dungey, Reed, Barcia to win, how can you honestly argue the point? If Stewart was better in St. Louis, he should have been able to take that first place lead and keep it! As for those who will surely come back with their rule book crap, we all know the rule and that the AMA didn't follow it to the letter, but they got it right.
If you don't agree, ask yourself this. If you're driving down an isolated road at 3am where the speed limit says 25, but you're doing 35, is that against the rules? Damn right it is! But you sure as hell would argue, what's the harm if there is no one around? End of story. Now everyone can move on.
shouldnt they place someone a little further down the track with a green flag saying this is where you can start racing again?
I think they should give Villapoto 2nd place points
AMA got it wrong. Don't they have to clear the obstacles that the medical flag are on? He passed him on the last roller...before the corner. Additionally, the AMA makes up the penalties as they go...and in order to favor the big names. I don't agree with the 3 position docking after the restart either. Should the penalty be for the restart or for the entire event?
@preston--The "real" fans wont go away, just the Stewtards...we all know who they are.. Those who NEVER comment on anything other than a Stew post..never watch racing when Stew isnt there...Defend every move Stew makes, and when he doesnt win, which is alot lately, they make all kinds of excuses, like they are today... He was run down by a guy who was 5 spots behind him, and then he was gapped when he got passed.. Now guys saying he was cheated??? I guess all the time RV made up on him was cheating too, or when he gapped him he was cheating???? One Stewtard even said RV wont get punished because Monster is his sponser-----kills me the conspiracy crap people come up with.. this was the same Stewtard who said Stewart was told NOT TO WIN by Suzuki, saying they wanted Millsaps to win, the guy is so clueless about the sport he didnt even realize Millsaps does NOT ride for Suzuki,they are NOT teammates.. and he couldnt stand that his boy Stew wasnt winning, so he started a conspiracy theory.. And then last week all the Tards started heavy because he won.. And now they are getting it back and cant take it.. Its the same crap Preston..including the crap you spew sometimes..
@thagrott----Wrong, he passed him agter the corner, not before.. I re-watched it today..
@therealmofo...his wheel was in front of Stewart as they rolled the jump before the corner. Please re-watch.
villasloda- I think u r right- a green flag after the downed rider and it would clear up a lot of grey. the rules are tough to decipher about when to race because they mention jump sections and don't ever mention straight's.
The pass, in its entirety, did not happen until the turn! I agree. In all the screen shots the white and red crossed flag was on the left side right prior to the turn. He had to gain momentum and initiate the pass, pulling up alongside him before the turn/flag. RV couldn't see the flag on the left side and clearly his actions showed intent to pass prior to the corner/flag period. You can't tell me he planned it that way and he obviously isn't going to admit it!! There should be no advancement of position pertaining to the timed gap/bike lengths between riders when entering those areas of concern period. They will say there is no way to judge it, bullcrap. 1st gear upon entering until the they are clear and clear means through the current section through the next turn period. After the next turn passing is allowed. Any violations results in a 1 lap penalty. Anyone can judge when a 450 is in first or second. If they want to limit out their bike in 1st and blow it up then have at it. Everyone facepalms everytime those flags come out because it takes away from the fair competition. The safety of the riders, crew, and medical guys are more important to the race which is why we have the flags and system emplaced but to keep the integrity of competition the flawed system needs to be addressed. We are smarter than this, AMA is not that corrupt that a repetitive sitiation like this would not warrant a review on the rules to mitigate this situation from happening again and again and again because it will, it has and the outcome is the same. Gaps are closed, passes are made, protests are thought about, technicalities prevail. Ameteur clubs base their rules and regulations off of AMA and this same issue happens all the time. It will not change because it will take the degree of penalty that is issued out of the race director or competent bodies hands. If the downed rider was behind the tuff blocks just after the turn the situation would be a bit more dire. We never talk about ifs and buts in racing UNLESS it pertains to safety and then we analyze every aspect or so I am told. Anyway, can't watch RC5 cause he is too far back to get coverage so I have to watch this stuff. Entertaining as all get out to say the least. Can't wait till DAYTONA!!!!!!!!
I like turtles!!!
@triplenickel Its people like you that corrupts the true integrity of competition sports. The Character of these athletes are not and should not be questioned. They are just trying to win. Unfortunatly the AMA should spend the time and effort to plan for every situation that arises because their are people like you that think the rules should bent or broken for whatever reason. The true competitors out their who know what character is and put in the time and effort to win deserve a rulebook without grey areas. This is bigger than RV or JS. This is about everyone who has anything to do with SX/MX period. I love reading the JS hater comments on here as well as the RV haters comments. Its very entertaining. Most of these comments on here are someone hating on someone liking the people they hate. It is effing rediculous
@ Weege If you read this I would like to hear your comment on this. So what the AMA is saying is that if a rider see two flags of different meaning that he should just choose the one the best supports his situation. It doesn't matter if a riders safety is in question or not, just go!!! Crowther and FIM Race Director John Gallagher are spineless, you show me a screen shot of only the yellow flags out on the rollers and I will show you two of the white and red crossed flag out on the left hand side in front of stewart and the rollers. They openly admitted that both RV and Barcia gained an advantage in the section - an unfair advantage. Where JS slowed down they sped up. I don't think it would have mattered to the outcome of the race cause RV was on it. But it did matter to someone trying to do the right thing and fans watching a great battle. We were robbed of either villipoto catching and passing, passes back and forth like we got a taste of, or JS turning it up to ride on the edge and gap him. In the grand scheme of things it is bigger than the sponsors and the monetary aspect. Guess what, the fans purchasing the products are what make the sponsors and riders are what they are. I say Crowther and Gallahger grow a pair and make decisions based on what is right for the fans, not themselves or their bigtime factory buddies!!!
Just think how many kids this summer will be trying to pass on yellow flags from now on!!! 50s and up! this is sad! great role model rv is. make spineless passes on yellow flags!
Bad call by the AMA. RV had already broken the rule and been penalized during the restart. He went right ahead and broke the rule again. He should have been penalized again. If you want the riders to respect the rules and keep the down riders as safe as possible you better be consistent. The message sent is that it may be a good bet to ignore the flags and just keep racing. BAD IDEA.
this just show RV's character which i dont think he has much of. dood does shady stuff around RCFs twice in one race. just a couple weeks ago he says dirtbikes arnt the end all be all for him. then he proves he will do anything to win.
no doubt he would of passed JS shortly thereafter where he was red flag racing, but he didnt know he was that much faster. hes just dirty. really the AMA was waaay to light on his first penalty. he should of went a lap down. the fastest man of the day didnt deserve to win.
JS was too slow to take the win with or without RV in the mix
@inquisitive
- Are you dense? There has always been passing on yellow. I have never been in a race where you can't pass on yellow. Yellow is, hey someone ate crap, be careful. Red is stop.
My question is also on the how did he get docked 3 positions on a restart and not after the race was over.
this just show RV's character which i dont think he has much of. dood does shady stuff around RCFs twice in one race. just a couple weeks ago he says dirtbikes arnt the end all be all for him. then he proves he will do anything to win.
no doubt he would of passed JS shortly thereafter where he was red flag racing, but he didnt know he was that much faster. hes just dirty. really the AMA was waaay to light on his first penalty. he should of went a lap down. the fastest man of the day didnt deserve to win.
JS was too slow to take the win with or without RV in the mix
@inquisitive @SeattleMX @ETfan
Since you guys think Villopoto is spineless and lacks character, would you say the same about Stewart trying to pass/take out Villopoto in the previous corner under red lights and red cross flag? Just curious, because it happened.
Just one of those railing against RV.......what do you say about James passing after the red light in the previous corner? RV is an enormous cheater, but you just ignore James' pass under Red Cross conditions? In James' case the cross flags only pertains to the triples, but did RV pass on the triples? Most ridiculous thing about this all is, the damn red cross flags shouldn't have been out! That was a simple yellow if there ever was one.
I would love to hear some official type explanations as to why Stewarts pass is not being touched upon in any of this.
Another observation, minor as it may be...Jason Weigandt stated that he tried to be a, (Wall Fly) to witness some discussions between teams, racing officials, sponsors, assorted managerial types etc, etc to gain perspective on discussion/decisions based on (interpretations) of (the) Rule-Book. But, the press/media, was not invited. In fact they were run out of the circus tent of interpretation on a proverbial rail, so we children of a lessor-God, cannot witness how the system actually (functions).
Someone else above commented that the rule-book cannot possibly cover every racing issue. This exact scenario is a classic example of why amendments are made to the (original) constitution/rule-book mot unlike an interoffice memo informing you to remove your science project from the company chill chest.
It is all, a work in progress, and hopefully a democratic (for the people) one at that.
What happened in good ole St. Louie, will ultimately lead to some form of amendment/change of some kind, in how officials see/interpret and regulate future scenarios similar to this one. Not exactly remind you, because history never repeats, or does it...
This RacerX forum, as it were, is a tiny cog in the big wheel of the legislative body of our sport. And through discussions, as this is/are, observations are made that will lead to amendments to our (constitution) of Motocross, and it's much younger (urban) brother that is Super-Cross. It's called evolution. As the times, they are a change'n.
Howl-a-loo-ya, Broutha...And it was good!
Shepster, as you said, JS was not passed until the turn. as far as gaining RV had his front wheel beside js from the very first jump and maintained it until he passed in the corner. This broke or stretched no rules.
After all this - I hate cheaters and cheating, I would have done the same thing, I would not have passed but been ready to kill it the second I was clear.
its interesting that CR, and RD,made up far more time than RV and JB did but RV is catching all the heat
The best part about racing is the lack of rules. Watching basketball or football these days has become a joke. Everybody... please stop trying to play Matlock to break the case. The AMA isn't being payed off by corporate sponsors. The results aren't rigged. Your favorite rider was as good as whatever place they got. The what-ifs and excuses on here are getting ridiculous. And the constant bashing of any of these riders by some of us is getting to be a little embarrassing for our sport as well.
for everyone saying it was fair it obviously was not nothing against villapoto but it just ruined the whole race
We finally get a good race going and the move for the win was kinda shady. It sucks for the fans who pay good money to go to these events.
Had Villopoto violated the rules? Clearly, yes, for the second time in the race. Would he be penalized? Of course not, he's Ryan Villopoto. All of this is absolute garbage, that first penalty should have eliminated him from contention for the win right away, but it was improperly assessed, and then they straight up lie about the second one. No integrity from governing bodies whatsoever. Disgusting.
Had Villopoto violated the rules? Clearly, yes, for the second time in the race. Would he be penalized? Of course not, he's Ryan Villopoto. All of this is absolute garbage, that first penalty should have eliminated him from contention for the win right away, but it was improperly assessed, and then they straight up lie about the second one. No integrity from governing bodies whatsoever. Disgusting.
Why even have a yellow flag if you can race through them. A caution is a caution warning somebody is in danger. Come on AMA, NASCAR slows a race down on a caution. There is a reason your flaggers are waving there flags.
All professional sports deal with their challenges and calls on the field and the dissection of the video after the fact. Finally, Supercross has reached the level where people care. Stuff happens, deal with it. We will all learn from it. Keep the lawyers out of racing and settle it on the track. Thanks to all teams for withdrawing their protests. It was just one of those things. It is over. Move on.
My wife and i were there and both saw Villopoto pass Stewart for the lead. A red cross flag was clearly out when he passed. We're not Stewart fans, but making an illegal pass two times in one night is pretty ridiculous. I'd like to read the actual rule for making an illegal pass on a red cross flag.
I don't no wether to laugh or cry...?!
I like turtles.
Well s-p-e-l-l-e-d out, Mr. Weigandt. That should settle things...
But it probably won’t.
@RunsreyM--Watch the race on TV--RV did NOT pass under the red cross flag--They were well passed the flag and the rider who was already on his bike.. They were clear of the straightaway and going into the corner, over the roller when RV passed.. Watch it again, RV did nothing wrong..
I understand passing on a yellow is currently permitted but with the AMA trying to make the sport safer, passing on the yellow should not be permitted. Now we are going to have every kid on the track trying to make passes on the yellow flag.
Wow, if I didn't know any better, reading all these comments regarding "the rules", I'd assume it's doomsday for the sport of MX. People are really upset over RV's pass and/or the AMA's "lack" of throwing the book at him? I've seen a lot less outrage over more substantial situations. RV's "character" is coming into question? Really? And I suppose all the other riders out there are saints? Bad role model for our kids?? Wow now I think I've heard it all. Hopefully some of you have booked your appointments for your shrinks this week because you'll lose sleep all week thinking of RV getting his undeserved win. Or you can just let it go and move on. Great race for all riders! Bring on Daytona!
So according to this rule if I am in first place and 4 seconds ahead of 2nd place it is alright if the 2nd place rider charges up along side of me just as long as his front wheel does not pass mine. This rule needs to be amended.
AMA Rule
6. WHITE WITH RED CROSS: Indicates that ambulances, safety vehicles or emergency personnel are on the course. EXERCISE caution. In motocross, Arenacross, etc., should this flag (red cross) be displayed, riders will slow down and maintain position with no passing or jumping until past the incident. Failure to do so may result in the rider being docked by one finishing position up to disqualification from the event.
RV should have been docked a minimum of one position after the race on the first infraction. As far as the second infraction with the pass on JS according to the rule book RV pass was not legal since they had not passed the incident which is where BK was down.
I'm not a JS or RV fan but as far as the AMA rules go. The final ruling was wrong on both accounts.
The riders and the AMA know what the rules are a lot better than a bunch of keyboard-punching community organizers.
It really isn't about who was faster or who deserved to win the race. Rider safety should be the #1 point. I think the interpretation made could lead to tragedy. If you are going to allow passing on the yellow flag, or to allow riders to try to gain an advantage...even by 'rolling faster' through a red cross flag, it is only a matter of time before there is a tragedy. Anytime these guys are racing through a trouble spot the possibility for making the caution situation worse, or much worse, exists. This interpretation of this unique situation is only going to cause riders to be more aggressive. The AMA really needs to do something to clarify this or it's going to get crazy out there. Race on the GREEN.
Even rc said he should have been docked a lap. So he can thank the ama for keeping him alive and breaking their own rules. Milsaps has been screwed.
Looks like JS was the only one that really new the rules but got passed for following them.
Like I said I'm not a JS fan. RV would have probably passed him anyways.
I agree!
Safety should come first
What are rules for if your not going to follow them.
Matthes had the AMAs Kevin Crower (sp?) on his podcast to discuss the issues involved here. He made it clear that there are rules specifically for AMA Supercross that are not the same rules of racing that we are all familiar with.
Comments of interest include: the setting of precedence for penalties (implying that there is no standard for severity or execution) , use of flags (with the exception of yellow) being at the discretion of individual AMA officials, yellow flags are manned by unofficial track workers and serve as a warning signal with no race implications. The main theme of the discussion was that while there are rules in place, there are a lot of gray areas that are interpreted as the AMA officials feel appropriate.
Now for my opinion of the meaning of his comments.... As with everything in life, those who interpret rules are going to do so to best serve their own interests. When in a "gray" situation, the AMA officials will always rule in a manner to keep the series as interesting as possible. That is exactly what played out this weekend.
FACT: bubba cut villopotos throat last year at Daytona on a mans track
@Shepster. While I'm not one to be dragged into arguments with nameless and faceless "online moto experts" I've read your posts on this thread and you are completely missing the boat on my point. I'm all about fairness and rules. This isn't an issue of riders trying to cheat, nor do I believe the AMA/FIM is trying to tailor rules to suit a given team or rider. Rather, I believe based on the circumstances, that they made a judgement call that was fair given the sitation. As so many have clearly pointed out, there is conflicting flagging, etc. all over this situation. So to expect a rider in the heat of battle, with 50,000 plus fans screaming while he's focused on lines, setting up a pass, riding at speeds that we mere moto mortals cannot begin to imagine, to gather and process all that info out of what may be their peripheral vision at that time and react in a split second is completely unreasonable to expect. Not sure if you have ever raced, but if you have, you might appreciate the riders perspective a little more. And by the way, you would be naive to think that whether it's our sport or any other for that matter, that participants, teams, officials don't bend or break the rules. I'm not saying it's right, but the fact remains, it's always been and probably always will be that way. In any case, I'm done with you, just as I am with this whole fabricated controvery. On to Daytona where I hope to see more great racing, and may the best rider win.