Bench Racing Ammo: Series After Daytona
Thursday, March 14, 2013 | 11:00 AM
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It’s a credo that Ricky Carmichael pumped heavily en route to five AMA Supercross Championships. “The series really begins at Daytona,” he would say, pre season.
Ryan Villopoto is now following that road map. Three wins in the last four races (including Daytona) have powered him into the points lead for the first time this season. That means that the race after Daytona will look similar to the actual series opener in Anaheim two months ago—RV will have red backgrounds on his number-one plate.
But here’s the strange part. While Carmichael would say the series began at Daytona, he would promptly go out and win races in California, open up a points lead, and head to Daytona in protect mode. In fact, in every championship season, Carmichael held the points lead leaving Daytona. If the series really begins there, it’s nice to start the series with a solid points cushion.
A look at Carmichael’s five title seasons shows an odd trend. He had dominant speed in 2001 and won a ton of races both before and after Daytona. He ended the season with 13-straight victories (tying the all-time SX win record), so clearly he rolled strong after Daytona.
During his '03, '05 and '06 title runs, RC won zero times after Daytona.
Simon Cudby photo
The race really was pivotal in 2002, as RC entered the race second in points behind David Vuillemin. Before the race, DV jacked up his shoulder in a photoshoot with a magazine (thankfully for the collective conscience of our office, it was TWMX, not us) and showed up wounded for Daytona. Carmichael won the race, took over the points lead, and the rest is history.
Now this is where things get interesting. Look at the post-Daytona stats for Carmichael’s final three title seasons:
Carmichael Wins After Daytona
2003: 0
2005: 0
2006: 0
No wins after Daytona, and yet he won the title in 2003, 2005 and 2006. For RC, clearly, the season really began before Daytona. He might be a Florida guy, but he was more effective on the west coast tracks than you would think. By opening up a points lead out West, he wouldn't have to push it down the stretch. “Series begins in Daytona” was just a catch phrase to dilute some of the hype of Anaheim 1 (which Carmichael never won).
RV took the points lead for the first time all season in Daytona. Perfect timing?
Simon Cudby photo
In fact, the points leader leaving Daytona almost always ends up the SX Champion. We dug into the old series stats and found out that in the last 20 years of supercross, only one time has the rider holding the points lead after Daytona not won the SX title. That year was 2009, when Chad Reed took the points lead back from James Stewart with a clutch win (Stewart, meanwhile, crashed in the first turn but fought back to finish). From there, the Stewart/Reed battle raged on, with Stewart ultimately wresting the points lead back and winning the title by four points. In the other 19 years, the leader after Daytona went on to win the crown.
Villopoto just took the points lead for the first time. Perfect timing!
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Like I said in earlier posts,, Reed was faster than RC in '03 and '05, in the last half of the series.. One bad race cost Reed the title in both those years..
Good Stuff Jason, 3 seasons and no wins for RC after Daytona, hhmmm Maybe RC meant the season started for everyone else after Daytona, since he was ready to lay up and maintain his point lead.
@BD25,, I don't think RC "laid up" after Daytona. The points chase was much to close between him and Reed.. If I remember correctly, RC had to get 2nds or 3rds to keep the lead.. Not a comfortable points lead by any means.. Trust me, RC rode hard..
@mxmofo---Reed had RC's number in the last half of 2003, but I think RC was better in 2005.. I think more than one bad race cost Reed the titles.. RC had more wins in 2005. He had seven wins and Reed didnt get his first that year until San Diego, and not another until Daytona..He had 4 wins all season including the Vegas race, RC already won the title that year at Houston, before the Vegas round.. @005 RC killed it..K-Dub won A1, then RC reeled off 5 straight until San Diego.. RC ruled Reed in 2005.. the second half of 2003 Reed owned it, winning 6 striaght, but not 2005.. RC won that title by 25 points..
The series begins at A1..... If you are still in contention for the championship at Daytona or you are the points leader, then the "bringing it home" phase starts. You can win every race from Daytona on and not win the title.....
If your close, now its time to make things happen - This is where Dungey is at.... He needs to get some wins because if RV nails a few more wins and Dungey has a few more 4-5 finishes while Saps finishes ahead of him...it could be over for him with a few rounds to go.....
I do think RV at this point is not as much worried about DM as he needs to stay ahead of RD, if he does this all else should fall into place. I think RD has a touch more speed and is much stronger at the end than DM, stares between these two will be crucial as RD will have a tough time passing DM. RV seems a touch faster than RD. The thing that could easily hurt any of the top three is 4-5 other riders that can and probably will be in the podium mix every week. Not knowing makes every race something to look forward. Something tells me CR, TC, JS, and JB have a LOT to prove and say about this series.
@therealmofo,, You could be right about '05. Reed just had some bad luck. I also rememberm the BIGGER the whoops, the more RC struggled...
RC had a sub par bike and a poor set-up in my opinion in 03. In 05 and 06 he had stiffer competition and a better setup and bike. He didn't cruise the last half but there were many races where he didn't push for the win with everything he had because he could afford it, also he lost a full race in Atlanta and still pulled it off against Reed and Stewart.
That moment when RV looks exactly like the Simpsons' version of Ron Howard
@davidl,, RC had a sub-par bike in '03? hahaha.. I guarentee that Reed's bike was not near as good as RC's.. I have heard from guys that those 250 Yams sucked..
@davidl,, and thats exaclty why Reed came on strong the last half of the year.. He finally got his bike working better..
mxmofo Sorry, in my attempt at humor I forgot to hit the sarcasm button on my post..We all know Ricky better than that!! ..but in 03 the field was not very deep and RC really only had CR for competition, allowing him to manage the damage each week, garnering 367 points to Reed's 360.
05 the field was not much deeper and RC again garnered 367 besting CR by 25 as therealmofo posted. So at least in those two years I think RC played it safe and managed his points lead..laying up was a poor choice of words on my part.
In 06 he was getting older, while CR and JS were in their prime making for a much closer and harder fought title, as the points total shows, RC squeaked it out 338 points to CR and JS's 336....No managing in that series just great racing!!!
@BD25,, hahahah,, I thought you might have been being sarcatic.. I have read many of your posts, and I knew you were smarter than that..
RC always entered the season more prepared with training and bike set up. 2002 was the big crash A1 and he was still winning again by round 3. It seemed to me he matured as a supercross rider where as outdoors he was an animal plain and simple a beast!!
Reed was not faster than RC in 05'. RC had that Zook dialed.
@persona,, and had some luck on his side, unlike Reed..
@mxmofo1 True
Wow, never knew that or would have expected no wins from RC after Daytona. I bet he had it in him if he needed to. Probably was playing it smart to leave SX healthy for the Nationals. Again, surprising statistic that underlines RC's racecraft.
mxmofo, I was serious about RC bike being subpar and Reed knew it and stated it in and interview in04. Also if you remember RC had his bar WAY back and set the rebound ridiculous slow and was worse than normal in the whoops. Roger Decoster sat with me in practice in st louis in 05 and told me how he helped encourage RC to get his bars back up and suspension correct and he owned Reed in 05 and 06 ( Reeds words were "I had nothing for RC all year"), those years it was RC and JS and in 06 the reason the score was that close was RC screwed up a whole race in st louis. JS and RC had worse luck than CR that year resulting in races with 4 or less points.
Now CR is an AWESOME racer among the best in the world and rocks for still being there in my book
Lets get something straight though.. Rc has won the race after Daytona before, just those 3 years he didnt.. its not like he has NEVER won the race after Daytona..he won Daytona in 2002 and won the New Orleans race right after.. and in 2001 RC won Daytona and won the Minneapolis round right afterward..He won Daytona 5 times, and won the next race twice..
RC won the supercross title 5 times, and none of them involved "luck" .. He was super talented, and worked hard, and surrounded himself with like minded people.. And took it to them.. You dont get lucky and win 5 titles.. Its one of the things that makes him the GOAT....
@davidl,, well said.. I believe RC had his bars so low was because O'Mara told him to try it, if memory serves me right.
@bd200,, Now come on,, hardly ever getting in a first turn crash, chain breaking, crashing out for the season ( except '04 ), getting tangled and crashing with a lapped rider, etc, etc... I dont care what you say, some of that was luck.. Its funny how you claim luck was not involved at all.. That flat out, is impossible.. And don't put words in my mouth.. I NEVER,, said luck was reason for the 5 titles.. Thats how you get in trouble on here..
@mxmofo---First of all, I NEVER put words in your mouth or accussed you of anything, what makes you think my post was aimed directly at you!!!!! Do you think you are the only guy who reads this?? Secondly, RC did have a chain break, his shock broke in St. Louis, he still won the title.. He has had first turn crashes, and bad luck with lappers, he still won the titles.. Because when he had the oppurtunities, he took them and won.. He made alot happen, not let a bad race ruin his whole season because he would win, ALOT.. So dont jump on me because you said something, I wasnt directing my post at nobody..so dont tell me "thats how I get in trouble" with who anyway, the teacher??
@bd200,,, Ummmm,, because I was the ONLY one to bring up the word "luck." Yeah, RC did have a couple bad races in his 7 or 8 years in SX... hahaha, give me a break.. Not everyone gets their 25 points back when they run illegal gas like RC did.. And when asked if SX and MX riders should be tested for steroids, RC said,, and I quote. "Well, it isnt gonna make me twist the throttle any more." Not the smartest answer,, thats for sure..
@bd200,,, and also,, when you QUOTE the word luck,, that means that you are using someone else's words, which happen to be mine.. Did they teach you that in school????
@mxmofo--I guess you are going to accuse RC of taking steroids now too?? Wow, if your guy doesnt win you seem to come up with all kinds of excuses.. First RC had way more luck than anyone, now he was on steroids..his quote was meaning "steroids arent going to make me twist the throttle any more" not too hard to figure out what he meant..and no, I wasnt directing my comments towards anyone, so dont get your little feeling hurt.. I'm not even going to get into anymore with you over this.. He never cheated anyone, and you make your own luck.. He is a 15 time Champion, in only 10 seasons--he is the GOAT, you cant take that away..
@ MXMOFO1, you are wrong about Reed VS. RC Bikes. I have heard from Reeds mouth, He loved his bike in 03. He said it was one of the best he had ever had.
Yeah Reed won the last 6 races and was fast and perhaps RC could not have beaten him??? But that my friend is the reward you get for the early part of the season. Then being able to say.....Hmmm.... " I can finish 1 spot behind Reed every week and still win the title."
You realize you are trying to Argue that Reed was/is better than RC right now don't you? Let's see, RC has been retired for what 6 years now and he still has more wins then Reed. He has also achieved those wins in what 3+ fewer years.
Uphill battle friend!
well said Red54m !
@davidl, I find myself frequently aligned with your posts as well, thx!
That makes RC's 42% wins/starts even more impressive. It was always a good time watching that little red head rip.
Reed was NEVER as fast as Carmichael. He challenged him, and was better on some weekends, but RC was always a step ahead. Also, when Stewart showed up... RC elevated to Stewarts level and beat him too. Reed wasn't even in the same zip code
@ rickmatuzio, glad we get to agree on something this week. We are definitely on the opposite sides of the RV/JS arguments.
Thats what these forums are for I guess, I can agree with you today and tomorrow think you fell on your head again! Rubber side down man, it's all good!
Yes Reed won 6 straight races over RC that year at the end, but do we honestly think if the tables were turned and RC was behind by the same margin that we would not have seen a totally different approach? RC knew all he needed to do was get 2nd every time if Reed won, and he knew he could do that in his sleep. The game is the title and it matters not if you win 16 races straight if you don't win the title. Not saying Reed didn't beat RC fair and square but some people are once again making it sound like Reed was the true champion that year if not for the IFs and BUTs.
Imagine, if not for the ACL injury, we'd be talking about RC getting 6 straight SX titles instead of a 3-peat.
Guys what's up with all the what if's???? I got one for ya. IF Mike Alessi would not get passed after he holeshots he would be a 3 time SX champ and a 4 time MX champ.
No disrespect to Allessi. Just making a point.
I don't want to disrespect chad reed. He was strange, sometimes he would get a good start and finish 4th. The very next race he would crash in the first turn and charge thru the whole pack to podium. Reed is awesome and I am a huge fan, but his consistency is lacking. The best he rode was on that Suzuki, and nobody knows maybe next weekend he will show up and go Villipotos speed. All in all, I think RC was just plain .3 faster all the time, but I do remember him running RC down. I hope Reed makes it back before he retires, I guess he has nothing to prove so he may not.
Still, watch a race from 2000, Jeremy McGrath was better than all of them. Pure finesse, pure speed, pure artwork. Watching Jeremy ride is simply shocking after not seeing him ride for years
I think it's a great achievement that CR was battling with the best in the world in '03 & is still battling with the best in the world in'13. No many riders are at the top of the tree for over 10 straight years. This is simply awesome. I'm also an Aussie so I'm probably a bit biased!!!!!
@bd200,, If you don't think that RC and other riders havent taken steriods, you are COMPLETELY lost.. Its a fact that even when he was young on 60's and 80's, he was taking growth hormones.. I have first hand knowledge that steroids were being taken in Arenacross also... Lets just say that I know a few poeple.. And, when you QUOTE someone, that means that you are referring to their comment.. Its absolutley useless to try and talk to someone that cant even comprehend that.... Also, I never said " RC had way more luck than anyone,." did I? That is a QUOTE from you.. Do you know what that means???? I dought it...
@bd200,, Seriously, can you read? You base your arguments on things that I never even said... Please show me were I said "RC had way more luck than anyone,. " I didnt think you could,,, so please,, quit living in Fantasy Land..
@mxmofo--You said "RV had luck on his side, unlike Reed" there since you let me answer, that is YOU saying RC had luck and Reed did not.. have a nice day, i'm not argueing about this, its silly.. RC is the GOAT, I'm a Reed fan too, but RC was a step above, it shows in the titles..
@rickamatuzio,, You are correct about that. When JS came into play, RC did step it up, and Reed did not..
Just keep insulting others, it shows your insecurity.. If you cant just have an intellegent bench-race session without insulting, I am done..
@ bd200,,RC did have some luck on his side, thats a fact.. But, I never said " RC had way more luck than anyone." Are you smart enough to see the difference???? Dude, get a brain.
@bd200,, I only insult poeple that make things up as they go,, like you...
typical MXMOFO--a guy just wants to discuss something and he has to name call for NO REASON.. thats why he is a mxmofo-----and not the REAL mofo like I am..LOL
@therealmofo,, Well, if that isnt the pot calling the kettle black, I dont know what is.. Glad you could you could chime in once again. LOL. Sorry, but when @bd200 mis-quotes me constantly, I have to call him on it...
@mxmofo--try and say it any way you want, you just insult and name call because you got called out ,,,,everyone else who commented disagreed with you.. So you just name call and insult..
@preston-keep trying to make Stew something, he still couldnt win a title until RC left the sport.. But thats alright nobody could.. RC is the GOAT...
@therealmofo,, Exactly what did I get called out on? Now your slamming on @Preston.. Who's next?
@MXmofo---You got called out saying Reed was better than RC in 2005... RC killed it, won like 4 or 5 of the first six races.. RC won the title by 25 points that year.. You where WRONG about that.. Thats what got you called out..
@preston deserves it, he does nothing but hate and name call anyone who doesnt kiss Stew's backside.. otherwise he doesnt care, just about stew.. He started on me on another thread just because I said it was nice because there wasnt any argueing from Stew fans, he name called and everything just like always..
@therealmofo,, I'm fully aware that RC won the title in '05.. I said "Reed was faster than RC in '03 and '05, in the last half of the series.." Its the first post on here.. No wonder why you and @bd200 get along so well. You both just pick and choose the words you want to use against others.. Comprendo???
Have you ever called anyone names on here??? Careful with your answer..
@mxmofo--You said he was faster the last half of the series, but you also said one bad race cost Reed the series.... RC killed it in 2005----I didnt pick and choose nothing,thats what you said, not the case in 2005, I cant speak for anyone else.. You have name called everyone today, for no other reason than them having an opinion that differs from yours.. Bd200 was trying to have a good decent bench racing session, you name called for nothing other than you are safe at a computer.. No reason at all,
@mxmofo--I want to know how you KNOW its a FACT that RC took growth hormones when he was on 60's and 80's.. I want to know how you know he took them..
@therealmofo ,, that tells me your lack of knowledge about this sport..