Going for the W: Daytona Blueprint
Saturday, March 9, 2013 | 6:00 AM
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In 1968, Major League Baseball went through a pitching revolution. Baseball historians will go on and on about the 1968 all-time high water mark for pitching. Hitters were so overmatched, the batting title was won with a .301 average and the average ERA (earned run average) for pitchers was an astounding 2.98 (nowadays it’s almost four). The next year, fearing fans would tire of 1-0 and 2-1 games, baseball lowered the pitching mound five inches. The difference was drastic; changing the angle that a person can throw a baseball, resulting in less velocity. That changed everything. Hitters caught up, ERAs went up, and scoring returned. Baseball historians almost always have to quantify pre-’69 and post-’69 when comparing pitchers and their stats—because changing the mound changed the game.
And all of this brings us to this weekend, the annual visit to the historic Daytona International Speedway. The Daytona Supercross is the longest running supercross going, but its evolution is a little like that baseball mound. We have Daytona 1973-2003 and then we have 2004 to the present. Before 2004 the race was held in the middle of the day, it was hot, rough as balls and the track was long. It also featured 30-man main events compared to the usual twenty. The race was tough, it was unlike any other supercross out there and it severely tested the racers. Basically, it was a Motocross National in the middle of the supercross schedule.
Daytona back in 1980.
Racer X Archives photo
I remember as a mechanic the top guys would be lapping back-markers three to four laps into the main. Teams would routinely stay down in Florida before the race to develop a “Daytona set-up.” The square edges and braking bumps required motocross suspension and chassis set-up, but the angle and size of the jumps required that there still be some supercross in there.
However nowadays, the race is much more like a typical supercross. It’s run under the lights to make it more bearable, there are just 20 men in the main and the track is built to much more normal supercross specs. Simply put, this ain’t your grandpa’s Daytona anymore.
Former 125SX winner (1995) and multi-time 450 podium finisher Tim Ferry has raced Daytona in both eras. His first time on the green grass was 1992, his last time at the speedway was 2009 and for the Floridian, he’s happier with what he sees nowadays.
“I like it better now to be honest, it’s in the middle of the series and needs to be this way,” says the now-coach for Honda Muscle Milk’s Trey Canard. “Back in the day it was a 30-minute moto and was tough to just have in the middle of the series. It’s like Gainesville [the AMA National Motocross opener] back when they ran it in the middle of the supercross series. It was so out of the norm and wasted everyone’s time for one race. You’re going to have the old school die hard people who say it was better before, but in my opinion this is way better.”
I remember my wrenching days (including time with Ferry) and the time before Daytona was always a massive undertaking. Suspension valving, linkage pull-rods, triple clamps, you name it and we would test it to try and make the bike work better in the rough stuff that was Daytona. However, Ferry says that’s not needed now.
RC checking out the track in 2001.
Simon Cudby photo
“It’s more just a standard supercross now, it’s sandier in spots than normal but ever since Mark Barnett started building the track versus Gary Bailey it’s been way more standardized. (On this note, how in the heck did Mark “The Bomber” Barnett never win Daytona? The outdoor warrior never got it done despite being as fast and as gnarly as anyone in his time.) Before you would end up running a much softer than usual supercross stuff but now, when I raced it in the later years, I sometimes didn’t even make a clicker change in the suspension from my usual supercross setting. There’s an advantage to knowing what you've been riding with and being used to it. Even the start now, they lay clay down so it’s always perfect.
“It was tough back in the day, it was rough and hot and what you would end up with is a little quicker rebound and a little softer on compression. That was when it was big sand whoops with ruts that are brutal-they were so deep! The lap time is now just under a minute compared to a minute and a half (before), which was almost a 30-minute moto. Now, it’s not as physically tiring as before.”
The endless days of testing beforehand are gone, so what do riders do to prepare for this weekend’s race? Some riders like Chad Reed will get on the dozer and prep a section alongside their supercross track to try and mimic a Daytona track. Most of the time it consists of getting the tractor and digging some holes to create some breaking bumps and rough sand whoops. The riders will do a lap on the normal supercross track and then veer off into the “Daytona section” for some extra practice.
Ferry sees this as beneficial. “If you ask me, that's more of a benefit than messing with bike set-up,” he says. “Dig into the sand and create chuck holes and make some crappy sand whoop sections because that's what it’s going to be at the race.”
The days of Mike Kiedrowski winning Daytona three times in a row (the MX Kied only has five career indoor wins and three of them are at Daytona) because he was so much better at motocross or Jeff Stanton dominating using his outdoor skills and fitness are over. This Daytona, for good or bad, is vastly different than it used to be.
Daytona in 2013.
LeBig photo
“It’s just another supercross now, you end up chasing your tail if you change your bike settings too much,” says Ferry. “Now when you go there, it ends up being one really good line around the track and they take really good care of it to make sure it doesn’t get too rough. There are still a few sports that get bad, mostly during the main, but it kind of becomes a one-lined track at one point because things wear out and you want to stay close to the ground.”
As far as a favorite for Ferry, despite him liking the “new” Daytona, his best racing memories are from the “old” Daytona.
“The time I won (1995) was pretty cool, I got a hay bale cover in my tire and (Michel) Pichon was gone. He was something like 20 to 30 seconds ahead but I ended up catching him and winning. The year before I had a great race with factory Suzuki riders Jimmy Button and Ezra Lusk. They were factory guys and I was on a privateer RRP Honda. I didn’t win but it was a cool race.”
So there you have it folks, whatever your opinion is of the changes that have happened to Daytona over the years, there’s no denying that it’s not the same as it used to be. Good or bad, what we’re dealing with now is as close to the other sixteen supercross races as it ever has been. Just remember that, when you’re bench racing with your buddies about Daytona and all that it has been in the past, sometimes change is good.
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Why don't we do these with other Nascar tracks? It would be cool to have at least 3 or 4 "outdoor" tracks on the schedule. Domes are great but going outside can mix it up and give us more diversity track layout wise.
Boy I hope the lap times are not under a min. Track looks pretty long I am hoping for at least 1:10 maybe.
Me too BillC these 15 min mains are too short. I don't know why they don't just add 5 laps or something when the lap times are so quick?
Or maybe do 2 mains for each class. Persona, I think most tracks might be too cold and rainy during this time of year, but I like your idea. The long whoops right after the start straight are going to be taken at very high speeds after the 1st lap could get squirrely.
I'd like to see the 250's do 15min + 2 laps and the 450's do 20min + 2 laps
Aron213, that would be great. they could set off some pyros to let fans know it's the last two laps or something, also show a big countdown clock somewhere.
Its about time they put a man sized whoop section in, now make em f'n deep too. I think any supercross race should be at least 20 min main event, whatever it takes to do that. I'm old school, 30 min + 2 amateur. Pro's were 45 + 2...no suspension.
Persona- love the idea! I hope to one day see the whole series run on the infield of racetracks. They are all over the country now, MIchigan, Phoenix, California, Texas..... No worries about space, no worries about the track breaking down to the cement, and great dirt is never a worry.
Parallels with stick-and-ball sports are best reserved for articles read by generics (people who don't ride) in more mainstream publications, like newspapers or Sports Illustrated.
Well Red Dog just said Daytona is like the other tracks now, it gets one lined. How is that good? Sounds like he's saying the tracks get that way because of the design, regardless of the dirt. I've been to a bunch of Daytona races, in both eras, the old way is better. I don't think that letting the racers decide what kind of track they get to race on is necessarily a good idea. Sure its less work for the riders and teams the way it is now, but it should be about what's more entertaining for the fans. It was also better for privateers the old way. With an extra 20 gates open there was a real opportunity for guys to try to make a SX main who otherwise would not. Some may think that's a bad idea, and on a typical SX track it might be, but at Daytona it didn't matter because it was more like a motocross track. One thing I always loved about our sport was that it was possible for a guy to come out of nowhere and make a name for himself. It didn't happen all the time, but now its next to impossible. Our sport caters to the factory teams way too much now, and the "new" Daytona tracks are a perfect example of that.
Last I checked it was called Supercross...so build supercross tracks and race on them at night. The stupid-gay-little 100% man-made supercross tracks look like crap on TV during the day, they look flat without the shadows and are boring to watch. Motocross is just a knarly-ass series that does not need the pyro and crap to make it the best sport on earth.
They should make this an east-west shootout, like Vegas. I know there's big travel issues, but I think the left-coast riders would like to attack that track.
How can you not love the photo at the top? Ghent, NY's Richard Coon (who can name the rest -TBlazer?) holeshotting Daytona, during the afternoon, when it was the SX race to win. While it has been refreshing to see a new face or two at the top this season, we can't deny that the tracks have been a joke. Now we come to what used to be considered "the SX race to win" each year and can only expect another dummed down, smoothed out, layout. RJ hit home in the recent podcast that Matthes did. The promoters have goofed up what was once a great spectacle in our sport mainly by allowing Dirt Wurx within 500 miles of Daytona Speedway. Bring back the 40 man gate and daytime race and let Bailey or Barnett design a real track, if only for one race!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_eaohc8zq8
Give me the old school Daytona track the more gnarly the better. I believe it meant more to win this race when it was hard and survival of the fittest. The Daytona track would get so worn out line choice was always changing if you look back at the winners it was the heros of the sport....now its just the guy who has the momentum at the time and no good racing.
I don't remember the billboard sized number plate era. Did they have a rule back them stating it had to be readable from half a mile. It looks like they hung sandwich boards over their handlebars.
Give me the old school Daytona track the more gnarly the better. I believe it meant more to win this race when it was hard and survival of the fittest. The Daytona track would get so worn out line choice was always changing if you look back at the winners it was the heros of the sport....now its just the guy who has the momentum at the time and no good racing.
Daytona post2003=gay.
@persona--I think you are getting your wish but its the Nationals instead.. they are building National tracks at NASCAR tracks, and it sucks.. Are you listening MXSports?? Man-made outdoors Nationals suck!!!!!!
I like the new format- and I'm an old school guy. If the race became a national then I'd want it to be like the Old Daytona but as long as it is a Supercross then I'm good with the new format.
Provided Davey doesn't pussify the nationals any further there will still be plenty of races that will test the riders.
Agree with Anon213- Supercross needs to go to timed races with1-2 additional laps. A lot of cool things cold be done with this. How about a point bonus if you are leading at the 15/20 mark?
I agree w/the idea of timed SX finals w/1-2 additional laps. No point bonuses or other b.s., though.
I think Daytona should still be run during the day. What's this about it not being so 'brutal' at night? It's not JULY; it's only MARCH. And yeah, although I get the point about it being better to not have to change the setup a great deal for 1 race, from a purist standpoint I'd rather it still be MX-style.
were the scoreres blind back then..look @ the size of the #`s...
(sarcasm button on) 3/9/2004 The taming of the beast is Blasphemy! The Daytona Supercross has had its rough edges smoothed, its gnarly attitude mellowed and its distinct personality taken away! What was once the most feared and demanding track in supercross, with lap times well over a minute, has been de-fanged, turning into basically just another generic supercross track. It has suffered the PC effect that seems to happen to any thing in this country that does not conform to what is considered normal.
Whats next, will they be coming after our beloved motocross and try to make it a one day affair, mellow the tracks with over maintenance and run the premier class before the support class, all to comply with the demands of the networks to fit into television time constraints? This is all a conspiracy to take and turn what is the roughest, toughest and most physically demanding sport on the planet and make it pliable to the masses!!
Soon they will be coming after the posters in this comment section, attempting to censor the voices of the fan masses that show discontent with the state of our sport and then tell us change is Good!!! (sarcasm button off)
Have a great day everyone and enjoy the racing from Daytona!!!!
They should at least go back to running it during the day.
@NikolaTesla & Joemoto - my thoughts exactly
The purpose of professional racing is marketing s, which means it is a show for the fans, not for the ease of preparation for the teams.
Also, there is nothing wrong with having events that don't fully conform to the current cookie cutter approach. It is good to have an event that is more difficult and separates people by level of fitness. An besides, since when are one line tracks good for racing? Oh, that's right, they aren't.
@texag - the number plate size was mandated by AMA rules. I think the requirement was that they had to be big enough to be identifiable by a spy satellite. The rule didn't last long - not sure it lasted mire than a season or two.
@laker23 - Richie Coon was an amazingly talented ride. I raced in D34 & D3 in that era and met him may times. I don't know the details but always wondered why he was here and gone at the factory level. He was good enough to win the 125 championship in my opinion.
I think #50 is Gary Pustilak, #20 is Arlo Englund,#26 is Marth Smith,#9 is Goat Breker
thats my guess's but I could be all jacked up
Good downforce off those #plates.........need that at Daytona...
Yeah hello all most of you have mmade the comments already! I like the old time pics. I still have a yellow and a White Jofa mouth gaurds hanging on my garage wall and a pair of Carrea goggles. Have a pair of the old Munari Norstar real leathers that were like the ones ,I think it was Gaylon Mosier had also. Then a real wore out pair of High Point boots with the square metal corners and what is left of my first MX boots called Full Bore with the vertical re white and blue stripes.
Someone might have to explain to the young pups here what I am talking about? I am still trying to find out who the oldest guy on this chat site is besides me?
The older we get the faster we were!!!!!!!!!!!
Its Daytona!!!!!!!!
LETS RACE!!!!!!!!!
Or was it Barry Higgins that had those leathers also? Gee all I remember is the people at Tucker/Rocky gave them to me? Back then it was just Tucker or Rocky I dont remember but they used to give me a lot of stuff.
Welker, Still ave the Full Bore's TH leathers & chest protector, Carrera goggles w/Jofa, duckbills, KRW helmet a Hodaka Super Rat & a "works" pipe Bob Hannah gave me for my '87 RM 250. Also standard large numbers! All was good!
Holy freaking number plates!!!! I cannot get over how big the numbers are! Thats incredible.
The only thing wrong with super x is the short races. Moto is 2 30+2's, Super x should be 2 20+2's. We really get to see some racing outdoors, and I kinda feel like we as fans get ripped off with the superfast super x races.
2 moto format, back to back, with no lag time. There needs to be more track time for viewers. THAT, is the only thing wrong with sx.
Here's my best guess at that 1981 Dayton heat race photo:
50 – Gary Pustalek
24 – Rich Coon
26 – Rex Staten
9 - Warren Reid
54 – Kris Bigelow
20 – Goat Breker
"I remember my wrenching days (including time with Ferry)" .... zzzzzzzz. Click.
Daytona used to be the biggest,baddest SX race of the year.
Now it's just another cookie cutter SX=Lame
Give me daytime and the old school gnarly track,oh and while your at it bring back Gatorback so I can justify burning the vacation time to attend "Bike Week".
In the first 450 A practice, top lap times were between 1:18 and 1:20. Let's hope they don't mess with track to make it easier. It wouldn't be quite like the old Daytona races, but 1:15-1:20 lap times would be the longest dry track times we'll probably see this year.
Inside sources revealed a printout at Daytona with Jeremy Martin third, in practice. Running a very low 1:20, I think it was. Deano had one in the 1:19 area. Lookin' good for my home guy! Can't wait for the races!! Enjoy, everyone!
As a native Floridian I once have to scoff and this time laugh at the folks who write these articles for RacerX. I commend you Steve for your knowledge on the MLB pitching scenario but, come on guy. UNBEARABLE heat in Florida...in March of ANY year you choose to use as an example? Really Steve? Throughout your life if your physical stature couldn't tolerate the best that Florida, weather-wise in this case, you might want to consider in the near future taking less trips to the dessert bar at the local Buffett. I assume that you are too at the Speedway as I write this. Did you consider today's severe clear and temps in the 70's wearing you down on your way to the funnel cake line big guy? How about last year or the year before that... OR THE YEAR BEFORE THAT?!?!?
Dave's Coombs , SOME day you and all those you are directly affiliated with will hire professionals who can differentiate between what they know about baseball and what they try to stuff up our noses about mx/SX. Or their arse holes from their elbows. Until then, you just let me know if you care to know the TRUTH as to why the Daytona SX runs under the lights!
Idiots...