Rapid ReaXtion: Roczen on the 350
Tuesday, March 5, 2013 | 1:00 PM
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PrintDavey Coombs
Why not? Unless Ken Roczen's ultimate goal in America is to win the 250SX West Region, which I highly doubt, he should again take the opportunity to learn and improve as much as he can. It's really no different than what we saw him do last year, except for the fact that he now has the points lead out west. But sitting at home Instagramming funny pics of his food is probably not the quickest way to get better; jumping into the deep end of the pool where the sharks swim -- Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, James Stewart, Chad Reed, Justin Barcia, Trey Canard, etc. -- is the quickest way to the top. That's why Eli Tomac is already set up in the 450 class.
Think back to Chad Reed in 2002, when he raced several premier-class races out west before the East Region started... That helped Chad not only get himself ready for racing when his region picked up, it taught him a lot about what to expect the following season, where he opened his first full-time season with the big boys by winning the Anaheim SX.
Ryan Dungey, Kevin Windham, Jeremy McGrath, Nathan Ramsey, Damon Bradshaw -- they have all moonlighted on opposite coasts, and it worked out okay for them. By moving up now, Kenny Boy is showing the world that he wants to become Kenny the Man sooner than later.
And if he rides in this sand like he did in the much-deeper silica at Lommel, a podium is not out of the question at Daytona for #94.
Jason Weigandt
You'd be crazy to argue against Roczen getting in some racing on the east (even if it's only one race) because we all know that will keep him sharp for when the west resumes. Last few years, West Region guys who raced some big-bike stuff in the East (like Cole Seely) came back strong when they got back on the 250s. And as for risk, hey, Roczen's title-rival Eli Tomac is doing four 450 races, so this is still less risky than that.
My question is "Why just Daytona?" I asked Red Bull KTM Team Manager Roger DeCoster and he said they want Kenny to race the 350, and they think the Daytona track works best for that bike. I'll take this further: KTM would still like to make the 350 work in America, and they believe the best way to do it is by transitioning a rider from the 250s onto one (when they tried to move Andrew Short and Mike Alessi, who had raced 450s for years, onto the smaller bike, it didn't work). So Roczen could be their 350 poster child for the future. He's already ridden the bike pretty well in supercross before (remember he challenged Short for the win in Seattle last year) so this time, the experiment might work. As for this weekend, I don't know if you'll see Kenny jump right to the front of this deep field (Tomac has had his troubles so far, too) but you might be getting a glimpse of a full-time 350 future for Roczen right now.
Jason Thomas
Ken Roczen is joining the circus on Saturday. No, not the bearded lady circus, the action packed 450 class is the fray he is signing up for. With arguably the deepest field ever, the addition of wunderkind Roczen adds even more intrigue to a big Florida weekend. As the current West Region points leader, he joins his main rival Eli Tomac in the big boy series. After a surprising runner up at Seattle last year in his 450SX stint, I am sure he is looking to open some eyes once again. With no pressure and a favorable outdoor style track, there's a chance we will see the #94 near the front come Saturday.
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The 350 is a perfect "stepping stone" for K ROC. Rev it to the moon in that Florida sand, he won't be at a disadvantage.... but on the other hand, did you see the Go Pro footage of Villipoto during St. Louis ? I don't know if its the HD quality or what, but that Green front fender was going SOOO fast down some of the straights where RV had a chance to hook up! I usually like to put myself in that riders head while watching Go Pro footage and for the first time ever I was amazed at the speed, kinda scary.
It will either work out well for him, or it will not...thats how i see it.....Exposure to the big boys is good and he did so last year....Daytona he will be thrown in with the sharks....the Big 6 are going to be hungry and agressive......
Nobody mentioned KTeamtacticsM --- Could Kroq be out there to cause some havoc for the 2 guys that are slowly but surely knocking the Dunge out of title contention...Especially with a Reed and Stewart combo ?? Stewart is now a podium threat each week and Reed is gaining some swagger....DUngey may need some help out there... I think Saps has his number in Daytona and Dungey may hit the dirt....
There is more of a market for the 350 ( and the 300 2/stroke) than most people think. As you age ( & put on some weight) it becomes a perfect blend of power to weight ratio that translates to FUN out in the civilian riding world. KTM is going to keep pushing that 350 market and use KROC & Tony C. to prove their worth. I would love to have a 350 or 300 but I'm still involved with my CR500AF project.
Good point Killo, on the team tactics. Be a chancey dice to risk KROC's West coast title contention over it, but you never know.
How could adding another of the worlds top riders into the mix be a bad thing? Looking forward to watching!
If KTM is grooming him as a 350 rider in the premier class they are setting him up for disappointment. While I think he could win a few races when things work in his favor, giving the field of 450s the advantage on the start could be tough to overcome over the course of a season.
I say the more the merrier, he has certainly earned the tight to be out there. I see him finishing 5-10.
Go Canard!
The only way team tactics would work in this one race is if Roczen can strategically pull a Reed-style first turn takeout move and wipe out DM, RV, JS, CR, TC.... causing DNFs of the leaders. The only tactic that KTM is concerned with is getting Dungey near the front with more consistency.
@MNfan. Not sure the 350 works bike is any worse off the line than a 450. They seem to hook up real good, if TC222 is anything to go by. He Gets the holeshot 9 times outta 10, not only against the Euro's, but he also did it at the nations with Bam Bam and Dundey in the field, and that was in deep sand.
No way KTM calls for Team Tactics or anything like that...They won't risk KRoc's chances of a West Title and doesn't seem to be the style of Rodger D or Ryan Dungey. Just keeping the kid fresh and getting him more exsposure with the big boys.
@MNfan, I did say " a perfect stepping stone" for KROC. 450's have the MAD H.P. but I can. agree with pipidekok on the G.P. resume they have built up so far
He almost won one last year on the 350, If it was not his buddy short in the lead he my have. If he gets a start (long start straight) he can for sure do well.
The 450 class should B OPEN run what U brung . What ever bike that can get around a track faster than another let'um have at it. CR500/300/whatever U can hang on 2. Wood luv 2 C flash Bell on that 350
Couple of ways to look at it
Taking Championships points
McMoto/pippidekok: I agree that the 350 is capable of a holeshot against 450s. It has obviously been done. I'm just saying that with the top riders in the world twisting the throttle, the significant torque/HP advantage of the 450s will prevail a vast majority of the time.
It is a little tough to use TC222 as an example of the 350 working. First, he is on a different level than his competition in the GPs. It's the same as when Bubba destroyed the entire "lites" class on his KX125 when his competition all had superior 4strokes. Second, I have never read an article about his "350" that the author didn't have tongue-in-cheek. They run full works equipment and it has been implied that the "350" moniker is nothing more than a marketing number. I obviously don't know that but there is no rule that says he can't have more than 350cc so why wouldn't he?
McMoto: I wasn't responding to your "stepping stone" statement. My comments were in reference to Weeges comment about KROC being groomed to move up as a 350 rider in the premier class.
Roczen has a substantial lead over Tomac and no challengers other than Tomac in the West. Roczen can finish out the last few races 2nd to Tomac and win the Title. KTM is crazy to put Roczen in the mix at Daytona and risk injury. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose. I love watching Tomac and Roczen but this seems to be a bad decision.
I like Kenny, but if the big hitters will be upfront, he'll have to settle for 9th or smth. Besides, I don't think he wants to risk his 250 title shot. At least he'll be active and learn a lot about big class
You dont see Dungey riding the 350. It's too slow especially in the deep Florida sand. Get on a 450 Roczy!
Couple of ways to look at it
1) Taking Championships points.........Unless he finishes top 5 he is taking 1 point from guys behind him ......... He did get 2nd OAL in Seattle last year...............The simpleton argument would be you just dont let KROC beat you .......Let see what happens.
2) KROC gets hurt .....This is the most difficult track on the schedule with more sharks per acre than anywhere else in the world. Cant imagine anyone not named ***** / ***** / ***** / ***** intentionallly parking a guy taking food from his table or ........either KROC / another rider makes a mistake.
JimM
Why is Roczen taking points a topic of discussion? He is racing one race. It is week 9 of 16. If KTM takes care of the real business and gets Dungey within a few points at the final rounds they can bring TC222 in on his 350 to steal a few points. (That was said with a sarcastic tone).
What B.S. Davey leaving Dungey out of the article but having Barcia and canard as "sharks"
Daytona is the best track on the schedule, it allows passing which means the start isn't everything.
Also using Alessi and Short as examples of why a bike doesn't do well is B.S. Both those guys pulled holeshots and finished exactly where they do today.
Goodlock Roxzen, you'll need it in the big bike class.
There's only two people that can make that 350 a contender. One will forever stay in Europe ( TC 222 ) and Barcia. That 350 would be perfect for his WFO attitude....always bouncing off the limiter. I haven't ridden one, but I've heard the competitive power comes from the top end only.
As far as holeshots....IF Alessi could get it out front, ( I think he did at that one race out west the euro schedule brought ).... All that's left is someone to hold it pinned and hang on.....JB 51. Would have been cool to see. That's all I'm sayin'.
the KTM 350 ridden by Cairoli beat all the 450's at the Moto x des Nations 6 months ago in deep deep sand. I think the bike has plenty of power for 99% of the riders out there.
mtbmitch: You are correct. The 350 is far more than enough for 99% of riders. Keep in mind that the riders competing in the SX/MX/GP series are in the top 0.1% of riders in the world. They can all make use of the extra power a 450 provides. As far as the success of Cairoli, refer to my previous comment.
It pulls as hard as a 450 at top end. And with 250 lap times 1/2 sec off 450 makes sense that 350 would work. 450 power is to abrupt . I shift less on 350 than I did on 450. And when reved out I can't hold on to either. Either way 90 percent rider. And the 300 is a joke for power, tune it for power and it will still be less usable than a 250f
I think its awesome to throw something different into the mix.......
Not4Show, sorry, my mistake! It's a "rapid" reaction and I left RD5 off by accident. Fortunately, sharks know they are sharks, so I am sure Ryan will understand, but my bad.
DC
MX Sports
hey , 350beginer, do you mean the ktm 2 stoke 300 is lacking for power...i bet ktm could give it more power, mabey its tuned down for trail riding...
I wonder if ktm will be the first to go direct injection, its the way of the future , can't hide from direct injection forever..superior technology , look at specs with what out there...might thrive in the consumer market and make tons of profit..
Wouldnt risk the title for kenny if i was RD,kenny hasnt won a title here yet, one good injury an the next thing your way behind the eightball, ride safe ken an pocket that 250w cash
It's a good idea to groom a 250 rider to move up to the 350, it will be like a fast 250 and should work well. In the sand though, you have to keep it WFO a lot of the time, even on a larger bike, and I figure the 450s will smoke the 350 on the long whoop straight.
It pulls as hard as a 450 at top end. And with 250 lap times 1/2 sec off 450 makes sense that 350 would work. 450 power is to abrupt . I shift less on 350 than I did on 450. And when reved out I can't hold on to either. Either way 90 percent rider. And the 300 is a joke for power, tune it for power and it will still be less usable than a 250f
Davey, you were good with everything else. Roxzen will ride well at Daytona with the motocross feel and longer lap times of the track
probably will do better than tomac
I'm not sure the 350 is much of a disadvantage if you look at the lap times of the the 250s.if anyone thinks the factory is running a actual 350 , your kidding yourself . I applaud ktm for the bike it is a good idea for the vet classes , most non pros can't even come close to riding a 450 to its potential .the only knock I have on it is it's still 12 pounds heavier than the Honda crf 450!
What are you people smoking? "Grooming" him for the "big boys class"? "moving him up slowly"? Who are you talking about? Ken Roczen?
Hahahahaha. Roczen`s been riding a 450 since he was 12. He won the ADAC Masters title on a 450 Suzuki at age 16, an open international event which attracts top GP riders. He probably has more training hours on a 450 than Justin Barcia and Eli Tomac put together. He's finished 2nd, only 5 seconds down, to Ciaroli, in the 2012 German GP riding a one off event, and he destroyed Max Nagl, who was on a works 450 KTM, in Gaildorf in the masters, again in a one off outing last year. He also finished 2nd in his one and only open SX event last year, and you clowns think he needs to be brought on slowly, first on a 350, so he can get used to competing on a 450?
Wow, how ignorant are you yanks? This is Kenny Roczen we are talking about here, former 2 time world champion and current points leader in the west coast lites who has been posting laps on his 250 that most riders in the 450 class only dream about.
Get real will you.
Euromike. Don't get your panties in a bunch. Nobody has been questioning Roczens' abilities on a bike or his experience on the big bikes. He has proven he is one of the best in the world. The discussion has been surrounding Jason Weigandts' comment about him being groomed to ride a 350 in the premier class. The 350 has proven less competitive in the US with our production rules. For the bike to be competitive over the course of a complete season, under all conditions, it will take a special rider. Roger Decoster himself said that they are letting him ride this week because the Daytona track is better suited for the 350. He won't be able to pick and choose tracks when he is in the class full time. It is far better for KTM test the bikes limitations in this one off race for KR than to commit an entire season when he moves up.
Before you reference Tony C. as an example of the success of the 350, remember that he has a works "350" that doesn't have the displacement limits that are created by the production cylinder that must be used here. If the truth were revealed, I doubt that TC222 has any torque/HP disadvantage with his "350".
Under the right conditions the 350 can obviously win. RV destroyed the worlds best riders at the Buds Creek MXdN on a 250 but you don't see anyone riding one in the premier class by choice.
"Instagramming funny pictures of his food"... the truth in that makes it funny and sad at the same time.
I was waiting for Euromike to chime in from across the pond...Indeed, Kroq has a very impressive resume and has had time on the 450. The kid is fast, we know...we get it...however, we are talking about racing 450s over here in the US, not against AC222 and, well AC222... fact is in his first year racing both AMA SX and MX - He did not perform as many folks thought he was going to dominate, especially in MX - Last year was pretty medicore and he didnt do much of the anticipated domination in MX or SX....This year, in the 250 class he is finally making the grade in SX - But come outdoors we'll probably see him finishing behing Baggett all season.... Kenny seems to shine on those "one off" events and looked brilliant at MXoD this past fall....no doubt.....But up against Reed, Stewart, RV, Saps, Dungey, Barcia, Canard indoors and out, I dont see him conistantly being there...He'll have his days no doubt...
Euromike: While Roczens resume is impressive, there is a reason the "World Champions" come to the US to race. It is to try to become the best in the world. Ken and Marvin aren't there yet.
Euromike- You misspelled Cairoli, you bellend of a know-it-all euro wanker. USA! USA! USA!
@EuroMike--You are making yourself look like a clown again.. Roczen does need to be groomed for the big boys.. Its obvious he isnt ready.. Your "2-tome World 250 class champion" isnt ready to race with the big boys here.. He hasnt even won a raace here in the outdoors yet.. LOL!!!! So I wouldnt get too excited and toot his horn too much.. We noticed how all these great accomplishments you are shouting about came against Euros.. Not here, he hasnt done much here EuroMike, until he does, we will just see a work in progress until he can run with the best in the world here..
This was obviously the wrong place to find an intelligent discussion about MX/SX.
@therealmofo. Never have I encountered a name that more aptly describes a poster than yours. You are also an ignorant fücker and a complete ar$ewipe. If I thought you were worth discussing MX with, I'd post something sensible, but, quite frankly, I could'nt be bothered.
Now, why don't you run along and go play with yourself, fool.
Roczen did 2 SXs on the 350 in 2011. 8th at Daytona, 7th at Houston. Then, his 2nd in Seattle last year.
Musquin did at least 4 450 SXs last year , on the 350. 9th @ St Louis, 4th @ Daytona, 7th @ Indy, 6th @ Toronto.
Short was only out of the top ten in 2011 once, at Indy - 20th, 3 10ths, 2 9ths, the rest above that - 2 4ths, 3 5ths, 4 6ths, 2 7ths. Not bad for a bike he didn't suit.
The 350 is about having options. In the many years of 500s, there were a multiplicity of sizes used by manufacturers. What some riders like, others won't.
The 450 class is the modern day 500 class, Having the 350 out there is good. Just open it up to potential equivalency, in all classes between 2 and 4ts, and we'll have better racing. I'm actually not in favour of 300s being allowed in the 450s - well, perhaps for a couple of seasons, as no modern , above 300cc 2ts currently exist. I'd like to see manufacturers Have to put more effort in than just a bigger piston to have a MX1 /450 / 500 class 2t. At least a longer stroke too. You can fit 380 KTM cranks in up to 2013 KTM 250 / 300 cases..........
As for speculation of the size Cairoli uses - well, KTM have an 'Open Invitation' for journalists to witness a post GP tear down - it can be seen in at least last years video of the 2012 / 2013? model release conference at Munich Airport.
There's something for DC to do, at the next MX Des Nations or GP he or his writers get to - or Matthes (I actually tried to E Mail him about this when he was there in either 2012 /2013). I'm unsure if any Euro Mag has done this, but Moto Magazine (British) has tested all three of Cairoli's 350 Championship winning bikes, along with Herlings / Roczens 250s, and Nagles 450, 350, then De Dyckers 450 from last year. And they sure regarded Cairoli's bike as a 350. if I recall correctly, Herlings, in his first International on an MX1 bike, at Saint Jean De Angely, beat RV in the 2nd moto, whilst stuck in 3rd gear, on a 350. He rode a 350, of course, at Lommel, last year.
I've no axe to grind about the 350 vs 450. I don't own / ride either.I do know it's what Cairoli wanted to try, him being a consummate 250F rider - though he won on a 450 Yamaha (no it was Not a 400). KTM had what he wanted, and the Big Bucks to sign him. He'd win on just about anything, against Anyone, though. The World's Best Motocross Rider.
Unless they've changed the rules - in the 450 class in the USA, you can change the piston size for Outdoor Nationals, so long as you do not exceed the 450 capacity - you cannot change the stroke. In GPs, they can do what they want, but I absolutely believe Carioli is on a 350. If they've got 53 HP out of the 2013 production 350, as the dynos are showing , you're a bit of a Drongo if you think the Factory Team cannot get well into the 60s - if that was required. That, I very much doubt. Cairoli, just pins it - even more so than say, RC ever did, and, as we all know,he was not scared to 'lock the throttle'. Neither is Cairoli.
It's good to see at least one 'choice'. I'd like to see MX1 / the US 450 class, go back to 500cc and 'a bit',cc range. Slightly Bigger 450 4t 'kitted' bikes, are quite often, very nice things. Someone like Dungey, or CR, strike me as perfect "Big Bike" riders. JS, and RV, strike me as both the type that could do even better on slightly smaller 'Open Bikes", than the 450s. But, it might be very hard to get them to try - as, once on a 450, riders are reluctant to give anything away - not thinking of, perhaps, the benefits the smaller size might just bring them.
The right bike, for the right rider. So far, there's not been a top American rider that the 350 has been "the right bike" for. That's all.
@Davey Coombs: March 24, 2013, As always, hind-site is 20/20. Young Ken Roczen got in, got out, virtually unscathed, albeit his ego.
You make a good point about Ken Roczen's (ultimate) goal being; Not all the prestige that a 250 West Championship can offer is just a glimmer of what the World views as THE top producer in Motocross/Supercross elitism.
However, I am just weighing one Gold Star at a time, because that is all a rider can realistically do anymore. All those golden eggs that one has sweat and toiled over for, for two years now, could be gone in a blink of gate drop, when competing in an event that means bragging rights for a night or two at the very best. The worst, well... let's not even go there.
What actually was proven to, and for Ken, in my opinion, was that he could run up front with the Big Dogs for a limited time (only), due to two factors. Rider Conditioning and Bike setup. With the possibility of motor displacement leaning in as a strong limiting possibility. Though I think we all knew that going in, as Lommel was not that long ago. As noted, Kenny likes to train from the couch and in the buffet line, as this was brought to light by a constant slide backwards from 1st place to 7th.
Now, if anything, I believe that was the one redeeming factor that Kenny can take away from Daytona and say to himself, "I need to start doing the endurance training the other dogs have done, and that I have known all along, I have been slacking off in that department. if I truly want to, not only run with the Big Dogs, but lead the trailing Beta Dogs all the way across the frozen tundra to Nome and win the Big Bone, that's what I need to do!" as it were.
In summary, keep your eyes on the prize of the Cake (contest) that you have decided to enter in the fair that spring/fall. If you are only entering the German Chocolate Cake contest, then think real hard before you get disqualified from the entire Fair for that year, because you tried to bake an Apple Pie, when there really isn't a Ribbon to be won (for you) in that particular Contest, but you can loose all your Cocoa in twenty laps in a (all you can loose) pie eating frenzy...Concentrate on one discipline at a time, is all I am saying. Then, after you've won the German Chocolate (Cake) "Blue Ribbon," move up to the All American Cherry (250), Then top it off the next year (or year after) at the Fair with the All American Apple (450) Pie.
Because, after all, this is no bake off, this is Motocross. And it can reach up and bite your Wiener-Schnitzel off before you know it, and then your left with Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte on your face...
Always nice to read your perspective on these walls of wisdom, and boards of banter. Thanks much for the continued opportunity.
@Davey Coombs; P.S. These careers can be all too short for these young kids as it is. The Monster Energy Supercross series will be waiting (not/so) patiently, it's not going anywhere soon. Unless you're holding back on some privileged info that (we) mere mortals are not privy to. And that is always a possibility, but highly improbable, I hope...
Thanks again, Davey, for all your time and dedication to this, the greatest sport on two wheels.