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Honda unveils the 2013 CRF450R to David Pingree at Zaca Station.
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sic! sorry yamaha but if this thing works half as good as it looks, yr gone burger lol
Is it just me or did Ping not seem all that into it. I remember his KTM 450 ride, he was giddy.
Where's the hydraulic clutch?
I think the dual exhaust looks lame. It may work, but the two aren't even a matched pair. Didn't they try this on the 250 a few years back? Watch the aftermarket jump on this one! Oh yeah, so how does it compare to the Kawasaki? Supposedly it is quieter though. With no loss of power.
just sick
let's get all the MFR's talking about their MSRP's! Let's see them start to battle over REDUCING THEM
Heat isn't as much a factor with the forks as it is with the shock. And mentioning the use of a bicycle pump would indicate air vs. nitrogen. But, for every half of the fork travel used, the pressure would double. If you have 12" of travel, at half way through the stroke you'd be at 66 psi, based upon the 33 baseline he mentioned in the video. Go another 3" into the stroke and you'd be at 132 psi. Go another 1 1/2 inches and you're at 264 psi. Another 3/4" and it's 528 psi. Air is a perfectly linear spring, but unless Honda found a way to improve on past attempts at air springs, I'm not so sure about the system.
The airforks are good if you know anything they use them in japan on all brands of mx bikes there just now bringing them to the usa
motodog must not have had his coffee before he watched the intro.
Something tells me the technology to use "air" springs along with the internals has probably improved a little bit since 1976.
motodog,
I was around then, had the airforks (both Yamaha's and before that mods to CRs, also Simmons), etc. Biggest problem then was that, due to the fact that the forks were what, like 36mm and shorter, the air volume was small. This led to the drawback (or potential drawback) of any airspring, and that is it's highly progressive rise of spring rate under compression. Volume is the answer.
Larger reservoirs were needed which led to the bulk of the Yamaha canisters (still insufficient despite using dual-presssures behind diaphrams). I remember sealing the handlebars and plumbing them into the lower fork air volume. Made a big difference (side note: Harley patented this idea about 5 years later).
With the volume of 50ish mm forks and the fat end acting as reservoir, I'm thinking the available volume today is several times what we had available.
As to adiabatic heat rise.... it is always overstated. Remember that on fork extension there is adiabatic COOLING. There is no net heating of the airspring itself. Thermodynamics and Mr. Boyle make it impossible. Better question is: regardless of source of heat accumulation (mechanical friction, hydraulic friction (huge in a damper, as that is it's purpose)), how does the raised air temperature affect the resultant spring rate?
We could do the math, but we have no data. First, the greatest source of heat would be the hydraulic damping action and that is at the opposite end from (and largely separated from) the airspring. The cutaway of the fork appeared to reveal at least two pistons, one of which appeared to be floating. This might serve to isolate spring air from contact with heated damping fluid. Soooo, we really have no idea of what temp delta to plug in.
Anecdotally, even back in the day, with all the disadvantages of those air-forks, I don't remember temperature being a big deal. I forget what pressures we ran, but I worried about the temperature thing and checked pressure right after (30 minute) motos. I recall it was about 1.5-2lbs higher than cold and that, coincidentally, that was about as small a change as I could make with the air-bottle and gauge I used to set it. It was just not enough to matter.
Ping has slimmed it down quite a bit, didn't even recognize him at first.
Motodog's credibility was in question from the beginning with his spelling. Then he sealed the deal with his "corral of KTM's" comment. I think that's all that might need to be said. Save it for the GNCC or Hare n Hounders KTM motodog.
They have been racing the 2013 in Japan since the 12 came out so I'm sure they will have this working well. Have you seen what bikes looked like in 1976. And what they look like now. I'm sure the air system will be amazing then all other manufactures will follow like sheep. And ktms are crap it took how many years for the linkage to be brought out. All other bikes have had it for years. Oh and ktms weight half as much again as a comparable bike. = crap bike. Keep Taking Money
@bucky394
The dual exhaust isn't a machine pair because depending on where the mid pipe meets the mufflers, one canister has to be a little smaller than the other side for proper back pressure.
looks like a red yamaha w/ dual pipes. I dont see how they lost weight with dual pipes
Dial the fork ride height and front / rear balance without having to rely shock settings. Sign me up.
We will see in short order re air forks ability to separate hide height from damping
Note to Kevin whatsyourname .......... you look cool but air forks are not a "New Technology"
JimM
Pala374
Get one of the 2013 KX250f. That bike looks badA$$. Honestly im no fan of this 2013 honda. sorry
@bucky394,
I agree that the dual exhaust is weird, but pay attention to the video. If you pause the video at 2:39, you can clearly see that when you view the mufflers from the rear, it's obvious they are identical in shape and size (although inverted). When you look at them from the side, it appears as though one is a different size and shape than the other. This is just an optical illusion. Attention to details folks. I thought the same thing at first when I looked at the still pics. But when I watched the video, I saw that they are the same, and I think I could live with that. I think the bike looks pretty sick overall. Hopefully it's a top contender in the RacerX 450 shootout.
@blackid 117
Same thing...watch the video again.
I saw those forks on the factory Hondas in the Mexican GP.. at first didnt know what the dude was doing.. and i realize he was pumping air into the bike..
I don't know if this has been addressed, but if you develop a fork seal leak, it wouldn't be a little oil seepage showing, it'd be total loss of air pressure in one fork. And on the rebound stroke, who knows what would get sucked in.
Bike looks great as always. Love the dual exhaust! I will say, I don't care for that white strip on the bottom of the rad shrouds!
@endoman38.................. YOU SAID IT BEST!!!! Air is perfectly linear! You can't build a tune into air pressure like you can build progressiveness into a spring. That 528 PSI that built up at the bottom of the stroke is returning equivalently. It takes a shit load more rebound damping to slow that thing down. Bet they went back to 20 wt oil.
Who was the Honda moron? With out specifics given ( none were) the only difference was the addition of a "Y" pipe and a canister. YOU"RE STILL TRYING TO SHOVE 450cc OF AIR /FUEL MIXTURE INTO THE SAME TUBE AT THE HEAD.
Someone please explain how it can move more air?
And people hear this and go WOW REALLY!? SWEET!
the people that write these releases need to go and work for a newspaper and let the engineers handle things.
Hey motodog1977.....where have you been lately? There are these two companies called Kayaba and Showa (maybe you've heard of them?), who have BOTH started producing a pneumatic spring fork (i.e., an air spring). The 2013 Kawi 450F features a Kayaba Pneumatic Spring Fork. You ever train for MX by riding downhill MTB?? I do. Air has all but replaced the spring on rear shocks. Air forks have been out for awhile. You may scoff at a mountain bike, but research the technology - it's at an extremely high level and borrows significantly from motocross. There's also this guy who is nicknamed "Bones Bacon", who could forget more about suspension that you could possibly learn in an entire lifetime. His comments on the air fork: .... there are so many possibilities with it.....to change the spring rate you’re not even working on the fork......even with the system we have now we're saving a ton of weight....friction is down 25 percent....turning balance is better....
Believe it or not, technology has advanced since 1976. Apparently you are unable to grasp this highly difficult concept. Would these companies be investing millions and equipping their new bikes with this technology if it were inferior? I know that sounds like a great marketing strategy, but for some reason I highly doubt it. Have you ever even ridden a mx bike with an air fork? I have. And they're good. Really, really good. As in, better than any fork I've owned, including the forks that I've sent to Pro Circuit & Enzo. Oh...wait a second....since you are "an aggressive rider" on your "corral of KTM's", I guess we don't really even have to ask that question. You'll have to wait five years for your corral of KTM's to grow their own air technology as they play catch-up as usual. And, per your DARE to "Mr. Honda" to "address this revisited concept and prove me wrong in a public forum such as this..", well:
PUCKER UP, BUTTERCUP.
After you get done kissing his, well, you know....why don't you go out and buy some of this new stuff that is really helping make the world a better place - it's a new drug called: "getoffyourhighhorseyou'renotasamazingasyouthinkyouareandstopbeingsoignorantwhileyou'reatit".
Elsinore, if you don't think compressing air generates heat, explain how a diesel engine works. Please.
For every Temperature increase of 15 degrees F, air pressure will increase by 1psi (approx.. I don't remember exact values but I will looks it up)
This is why the 152psi in your shock bladder increases about 80 psi and you ride.
I don't know how much the heat will rise in the forks, but I know this for sure.. If the ambient temperature outside increases from 60f to 85f like it does at Millville from morning to afternoon, that will result in about a 5psi increase, or 2 spring rates. That sucks.
@2003RACER8M - remember that airflow is not laminar down a large tube (especially when you are modulating it at 75hz - 9000rpm), but that small vortexes form at the walls. The longer the tube, the more the vortexes are multiplied, creating backpressure. If you use a tapering cone at a location, the vortexes have a place to be without killing the core laminar flow, so splitting the pipe into two is the rough equivalent of (nearly) doubling the core diameter into two lower pressure pipes. This increases the flow by effectively shortening the apparent pipe length while offering what is close to a double the pipe diameter. The big effect is having a double muffler which gives more surface area to smooth out (common mode) the pressure modulation (which we hear as sound) without having a long moment arm relative to the center of rotation for the machine.
The science makes sense. Weight is less a factor than moment arm, and cascade vortex friction from a tube can be attenuated by splitting the tube into two smaller tubes. The proof must be determined on the track.
If the 20 odd privateers at a national show up with mostly red bikes, then they were right. if the 20 odd privateers show up with mostly some other color, they were wrong.
those dual pipes look hideous and why no hydraulic clutch? I will take the KTM or the Kawasaki
doug148877...The KX And CRF have KYB PSF forks...As far as I know..Showa doesn't make one...
when I ride my 08 crf450 I almost always have to bleed air just before going out. If I dont I struggle to get her to settle in at turn initiation. This is why there is a market for those little bleeders. This pressure increase is just a couple psi I believe. So I assume this means that with the air fork I will be doing the same except now its not a simple push button operation. Now I need to have a couple hundred dollars of extra equipment and the added maintinance of checking,adjusting etc. I hope its worth it cuz I feel I work on my bike too much as it is.