Traction Control: The Slippery Slope
Tuesday, January 18, 2011 | 3:50 PM
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PrintThis past weekend in Phoenix, we saw plenty of great racing as San Manuel Red Bull Yamaha’s James Stewart captured his first win of the year, Ryan Villopoto continued to impress, and Josh Hansen won his second Lites race in a row.
But that was just the beginning of the action. About halfway through the night, my Twitter inbox, email inbox, and the message boards of the sport started exploding with talk of cheating and underhandedness of James Stewart and his team. After the race, Speed pit reporter Erin Bates asked Stewart about some sort of traction control device on his Yamaha YZ450F. No doubt surprised by the question, James deflected it, smiling and saying something about a piece of dirt. It wasn’t the perfect answer, but it’s hard for anyone to have the right answer to a hardball question when expecting a softball down the middle. Stewart’s response actually created more questions than answers, and so fans went crazy.
"I don’t believe Stewart and his team manager, Larry Brooks, deserve this talk." - Steve Matthes
Stewart deflected the question when asked about the use of traction control.
Photo: Simon Cudby
In the AMA rules and guideline book for pro supercross/motocross, it states this:
3.15 Telemetry and Traction Control
A. Electronic devices designed specifically for traction control are
prohibited. This includes sensors that can determine front wheel
speed and any electronic control to the brake systems.
B. Electronic transmittal of information, including radio communication
to or from a moving motorcycle, is prohibited with the following
exceptions:
i. AMA Pro Racing transponders utilized for scoring purposes
(mandatory equipment assigned by AMA Pro Racing).
ii. Data or video transmitted for the sole use of AMA Pro Racing approved
event television production (mandatory equipment
assigned by AMA Pro Racing).
C. Electronic lap-timing devices are permitted. Transmitter beacons
must be in an approved area. Receivers shall not be mounted on
the front area of the front number plate.
In this age of electronic-fuel-injection dirt bikes, and with many of the factory efforts either out of road racing or cutting back on their road programs, electronic gurus are refocusing their efforts on the dirt side of things. Bikes are getting more and more sophisticated each year, and although I’m a former mechanic and think that technology is very interesting, I’d be careful of what we’re asking for.
The teams are getting more involved in data acquisition and are pushing the envelope in trying to improve the machines. When I was a factory Yamaha mechanic, we had data acquisition (as does every factory team) and it was pretty helpful, but I always felt there were a couple of things that bogged it down. For one, the weight of the entire system—which included wheel, suspension, O2, and throttle-position sensors—really weighed the bike down. Also, you had to have a competent engineer reading the results to make sure you’re correcting yourself in the right areas. The whole process was cumbersome and not always accurate.
Stewart's victory in Phoenix didn't come without controversy.
Photo: Simon Cudby
A few years ago, data acquisition was totally illegal across the board, but with AMA Pro Racing being acquired by the Daytona Motorsports Group (DMG), the rules were changed to allow some form of data collection, as long as you don’t put a front-wheel sensor on the bike or transmit from the machine to a person behind a laptop who can change settings on the fly. In my opinion, this rule change led us to where we are today.
The real story from Phoenix is that behind the scenes, team Muscle Milk Toyota (Joe Gibbs Racing) approached the AMA wondering about all of these sensors that were popping up on other teams’ bikes. Honda also has a few things on its factory CRFs, some that are visible and some that are not. JGR explained that if you’re open to allowing electronic data equipment to appear on the machines, then how long is it until we see those electronics used to create traction control on the machines? Wheel sensors are just the beginning, as there are things you can do underneath the gas tank that can’t be spotted and are a legitimate form of traction control. I believe that JGR’s fear is well taken.
So during the television broadcast, the producers cut into the audio of JGRMX team talking over their radios, which is a great idea—except when it goes wrong like it did this weekend. The JGR radio chatter mentioned Stewart’s wheel sensors and how the team is “pushing the limits.” It’s obviously something JGR has been monitoring. From there, announcers Ralph Sheheen, Jeff Emig, and Ricky Carmichael spoke a little about it and then someone mentioned the dreaded term traction control, which is, by the rules above, illegal. From there, Bates asked James about his wheel sensor and how it helped out with his “traction control.” And away we go with controversy.
I’m all for the announcers delving deeper into the machines and trying to get the viewers more information, but you have to be careful with this type of information. On Stewart’s bike, the wheel sensor was there for data acquisition, and the JGR team radio chatter never said it was for traction control. In essence, Stewart’s win was perfectly legal but clouded in controversy.
Does this change your perception of Stewart and the San Manual Yamaha squad?
Photo: Simon Cudby
I spoke to JGR MX manager Jeremy Albrecht on Sunday and he expressed that they never said James is cheating, but they are concerned (and again, have spoken to the AMA) about where this could go in the future. Albrecht believes it’s a slippery slope and they themselves are a “big-money” team and can do whatever the others are doing, but they don’t feel it’s right from a competitive standpoint.
Jeremy went on to say that the TV people approached him and mentioned that they had some audio from practice of the mechanics discussing other riders and teams, and that they would like to use it on that night’s broadcast. Albrecht said okay, but he probably should have asked exactly what the audio clip said. He may have told them to shelve the potentially controversial wheel-sensor question for another day, or maybe the TV crew should have told him exactly what they were going to use. Instead, both sides said okay and went with what they had.
I spoke to Brooks as well, and as you can expect, he’s not happy about the whole situation. He’s playing by the rules in collecting data, he doesn’t have a front-wheel sensor on, and he doesn’t have traction control. Upon re-watching the race, you can clearly see James’ tire is spinning as much as anyone else’s out there. As Larry told me, the things he has on his bike are available to purchase to anyone who has a desire to see how their bike is working. He also pointed out that you don’t need a wheel sensor to install traction control—you can do it all with an ECU box. Another thing he pointed out is, what exactly is the definition of traction control? As well all know, today’s four-stroke machines have ignition curves built into them that retard the ignition when maximum revs are achieved (the rev limiter). This helps reduce wheelspin and is, in effect, traction control. There are also ignition boxes that have produce different curves for each gear—which is also a form of traction control.
How will Stewart and his team handle this situation?
Photo: Simon Cudby
Brooks, as competitive as anyone out there, and my team manager in 1999, constantly looks for an edge. Last week at Anaheim, he pushed the envelope with GPS sensors mounted on the rear fenders of his bikes. These are capable of transmitting data to someone on the fly if they have the right equipment. In Brooks’ case, the team was downloading data from the GPS device after the race and overlaying a map of the track, allowing them to look at the bikes’ settings on a particular part of the track. Here’s the rub, though: according to rule 3.15-b from above, that’s illegal. A GPS is capable of transmitting information from a moving motorcycle. After a talk from AMA Director of Supercross Kevin Crowther, Brooks removed the GPS devices from the bikes. Again, he wasn’t changing any settings during the race, but because the potential was there, he was forced to remove it.
With this incident and all the wheel sensors on bikes, JGR has a point in their concerns. It’s not something they feel the AMA is capable of controlling, and they also feel—correctly, in my opinion—that such technology furthers the gap between the haves and the have-nots.
As this unfolds behind the scenes and the teams and the AMA work together on the issue, we’ll all watch with interest. But in the meantime, can we all get our facts straight and not turn a great ride by James Stewart into a story about something that was never illegal in the first place?
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Great article Matthes
I smell a rat and it is blue
bring back the carburetored 2 strokes
you should just make it impossible to leave a comment on this article i can hear the haters now
Excellent article. Answered all the questions and should shut up all the finger pointers that have no clue what is really going on.
I smell a dumb-ass and it needs to get over the past.
Good article, but seems a little biased coming from someone who used to work for Brooks.
Good article, but seems a little biased coming from someone who used to work for Brooks.
Hasn't Larry been caught cheating before? Like way back when. I'm not calling him a cheater I'm just saying that maybe JGR has a good reason to be paranoid. I am also not saying that James has or is cheating, or knows exactly what Larry is putting on the bike, heck for that matter James probably does not know anything about the bike other than it is a Yamaha and who his sponsors are. I just don't think that Larry is the straightest arrow out there and should not get upset when asked if he has illegal equipment on his bikes. Really any team out there should be ready to prove that there bikes are legal at any time. I am sure that everyone is pushing the limits.
I'm sure that sensor would have helped Millsaps,,, hahahahaha....
SHOULD... but you know it won't. (see 2nd comment). **Rolls Eyes**
Hooray!!! We can move on now!!! Dungey probably used sensors too, but he was "battling" for 7th, so nobody noticed his :)
james stewart is a dirty racer and a cheet, always has been and always will be
whats with the haters bubba won fair and squar i dnt even like him and i say that
On the bright side, you can go back to running lead-laden gas and no one will care. It's all about the trac-shion-ay control in 2011.
If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin
JGR is correct in thinking this is something the AMA is not capable of controlling. That's probably why they put this out there on the radios so someone (the media) would run with it. Leave all the electronic fluff off the race bikes! Make it about the riders and not the best "electronics" as in F1.
I love all the motocross haters. Its amazing to view, in person, someones ability to warp reality to make themselves look like an idiot. Great article Matthes, good to have you back on racerX.
Of course this is what they used, have they cheated? of course, and I thought that they would have been smarter that try and pull that one off, why do you think Stewart's bike never broke traction as much as the other bikes? The new technology is even being developed that changes suspension with the conditions, I saw the patent from Japan, just look it up !
Thats totally ridiculous "moto_rider_NC".......have you EVER heard JS play the race card?? HUH?? Do you really think he would say he was "set up"?? This whole thing is just something to stir the pot with, it's overblown!! JGR complaining and "worrying" just seems ridiculous to me!! The minute they find out that the information gathered by a sensor is beneficial, they'll have 'em on their bikes!! Technology plays a part in every sport, it's no different here!! Lets move on!!
This is a bit one sided as the guy used to work for Brooks so you can see why he is trying to help him out, facts are you push the rules like this and you should pay the price for it, Brooks thinks he can do what he wants and it looks like he can. Come on AMA what the hell is going on here the rules are the same for everybody
"cheaters"...did you not read the article?? TOTALLY LEGAL!!!
if you ain't cheatin' you ain't racin'
i have been telling you he has it. factory teams spend $5000 on titanium bolts to save 3 lbs. you think they wont spend $5000 on traction control? www.getdata.it it is avail to everyone. every small edge is taken on the pro level. this is just another one. larry probally cheated in the micky thompsons to you never know.
This is a straight up Blackeye to all the Yamaha fans. Larry Brooks needs to be removed from the Team Manager position effective immediately! Dude is a cheater, no if, ands or buts about it. Remember the ordered take out of Chad Reed a couple years back? I find it amazing that this is being played off like it's nothing at all. I now question the integrity of anyone associated with this team. As a fan, I demand something happen, be it from the AMA or FIM.
There should be no collection of data on the bikes during heats, mains or qualifying for any team. If you collect data you must do it during a non competition setting. Opens up to much opportunity for cheating.
Well WHATEVER, I never said Stewart had ever used the "set up" or race card excuse but if his career were on the line he is capable of anything. If you have watched him ride very much you know he has the "anything to win" attitude that includes dirty riding i.e. like when he wrecked Ricky Carmichael but boy was it funny when Carmichael picked up his bike and kept on riding. A lesser man would have punched the punk right in the mouth. As for stirring the pot, possible cheating is a good reason to question things. Personally I don't want to see MX become like baseball did with the steroid scandal. Keep it real and Mr. Stewart there is still no I in team.
he got caught cheating at loretta's long time ago and i guess once a cheater always a cheater
@Weasle 149....too funny!!!...I am laughing....I remember that. She obviously doensnt know anymore than what she has to jot down on her scratch pad she carries around all day and what she tries to decifer throught the head phones and RC, Fro and Ralphie blab to her during the race.....she knows how to look hot (not so much anymore) and jaw flap nonsens......
LOL here we go
Traction Control? what did I miss???
"Another thing he pointed out is, what exactly is the definition of traction control?" This comment alone leads me to believe they have some type of traction control and he knows he is in a grey area and nobody can do anything about it.
So by the law you can't monitor the FRONT wheel, but it's ok to run a sensor on the REAR wheel? The one that's actually driving the bike? As soon as this was mentioned I realized how easy it would be to program an ignition set-up to cut power every time it "reads" that the tire is breaking loose. Pointing no fingers here, but it seems that the AMA should re-visit this rule pronto. JBone's right, this could change the playing field completely...
Its crazy where thing have gone. Thats why i laugh when guys sat there all so close to the smae speed when RV or JS was 1 sec a lap faster. 1 sec is a MILE. Look what these guys spent on all the stuff, GPS ECT. I bet they would be very happy if they could pick up 1/10th of a sec a lap because at the end of the race thats 2 sec's!! They are splitting hairs to find an edge now.
What if the GPS device is attached to the rider and not the bike? Ripxx has a GPS device for measuring lap times etc. They recomend that it is attached to the rider not the bike. You can view some information on the device but most of the data is viewed on special software that comes with it.
I was not going to say it but I have to... z. simeon... STFU
This whole thing is fing stupid.. Stewart is one of the biggest role models in the world right now. He has never played the race card.. Has anyone seen the E60 about him growing up?? Comeon now PPl grow up. Stewart was sliding just as much as everyone else on the track. And if he didnt in a few spots thats called good mechanicing for christ sake! Stewart will win the 2011 AMA sx championship!!!!
I can't believe how many of you are still saying he is cheating, Did you read somethiong in this that the rest of us can't see?? WTF get over it it was FAIR no Cheating!! Get it??
Haters will be here until time itself stops! haha! Yes, Stewart is my man! Very proud of him of what he has accomplished! But just because i dont care for the other riders doesnt mean I talk crap about them. I respect them! Without them there wouldnt be a race period! And it you really want to talk crap, then Dungey's number one plate has an asterisk next to it! Because Stewart wasnt there! And to me, it seemed Villipoto was starting to hand his azz to him! So dont get me started. I value true speed and heart! It takes heart to take chances and go that speed! Most of these riders are not willing or just cant! Face it! Stewart doesnt need to cheat to win! Never has, never will! Just uses per speed, talent and will power!
Honda has had "traction control" of some sort for years, even back in the Carmichael days. They had a sensor below the counter shaft sprocket near the shifter that was for this purpose. I dont personally believe Stewart was running "TC" on his bike but just data acquisition equipment to moniter wheel speed difference from front to rear. Other Factory teams prob just hide theirs a little better than San Manuel
this sh!ts gettin crazy.. arnt they sponsored by GET? poor james.. two races back and people are already gettin retarded.. Great ride james! the traction control in your wrist was working bomb! I cant believe this has gone this far. everyone should of just laughed about it when the idea was proposed, and that really should have been the end of it.. i actually feel like an as$hole just for reading this article.
This is article is written very well. But I do have one question since when do rev-limiters reduce wheel spin, and who considers ignitions curves traction control? Sorry but both of those are stretching it pretty far.
And besides, where was this control of his traction during the 1st heat race? you people are fºcked up.... let james ride!
Every form of racing does it, its called progression. 2 strokes to 4, cromoly frames to aluminum frames. No matter who or what team does something new inside or outside of the rules people notice and talk about it and its going to go on until the end of time. To call Mr. Stewart a cheater is nonsence, he is getting paid to do one thing and like him or not, he is the best at what he does.
You haters are unbelieveable you have no proof to backup your statements. Your just a bunch of cry baby white boys, grow up. I agree with godzila142.
come on ppl, a rear wheel sensor can't detect wheelspin unless the front wheel has a sensor to tell if they are running different speeds. All it knows is it is speeding up and slowing down. Seems it would make it hard to get through a set of whoops if "traction contol" kept kicking in. He's matured and realized he doesn't have to be the fastest all the time to win. He has to finish to win!
Reading comments from the unintelligent individuals above cause me to question why I even follow and love this sport. If you have read any of Matthes' articles, you know that he shoots it straight most of the time. If you read his Observations from Anaheim 1, you would notice that he pretty much called out a friend and former co-worker in Gothic J. I don't believe he is sugar-coating this story because Larry Brooks was a former boss. Instead, presenting the information in a way that even the most unintelligent person should be able to follow. Yet some still cry wolf..
Guilty http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ySSSXDDGSw
The part that Matthes probably should have mentioned with the front wheel / rear wheel thing is why they dont allow a sensor on the front wheel. The reason is, to have a proper traction control system, you need a sensor on the front wheel and the rear wheel to be able to see a difference in speed between the two. Without a sensor on the front wheel, a traction control system would not know how much power to take away from the rear wheel in order to match its speed with the front wheel. Obviously there are ways to build a form of traction control without the front wheel sensor, but in order to make a full on sophisticated traction control system, you would need a sensor on both wheels. That is the AMA's rational behind not allowing a front wheel sensor.
JS was just riding great, end of story. He won fair and square and is on rails in the corners. It's going to be interesting what RV has for him this season. So far though it is only looking like a two man show, but RD could and most probably will come alive soon to make it a three way battle.
the real jokers here are speed channel. did erin bates really spot that thing?. come on. a producer or someone from the show got a bit of info, matched it up with that cheesy 'radio' call from jgr, and decided to get erin to expand and mention it to the announcing crew, then again at the end, on the podium. bottom line is this , speed channel decided to play this angle up, they think that this will be 'watercooler' talk and will help with the series interest and ratings. sorry speed, we ain't nascar, and we don't need this soap opera bullsh*t during the broadcasts when world class athletes are risking their lives for our entertainment. it was a slap in the face to stewart, and a slap in the face to the riders. now ya got people talking about traction control instead of the amazing athletic performances by the top 5. there are real stories , real athletes, and real people to cover. speed channel wake up.
Thanks vargus21 for making that clear. I certainly wasn't accusing anyone of cheating, because by the rules they may have had something onboard to monitor rear wheel speed. My first thought watching the broadcast was how it could be tied to ignition mapping to change power output. Your reply points out exactly why I'm not a factory mechanic. Well, there's that travel and money issue too...
I agree completely with moto_rider_NC! Nobody wants scandal to ruin the sport of motocross like it did baseball for a lot of people. Technically legal is like being " a little pregnant". Also, adding traction devices takes away from the riders showing genuine skill. Just look how Nascar got ruined with all the new technology. Leave it alone. Ride like a man not a robot!
WOW!! Damn i thought the people of motocross were real die hard gritty,down 2 earth fearless folks!! And sum of these comments sound like a bunch of whiney cryin ass broads who watch LIFETIME!! Take after ur forefathers HANNAH,CHANDLER,JOHNSON,BARNETT,SHUT UP AND RACE!!!!
Its not the CHEATING im worried about its that the smaller teams and privateers do not have the money to do stuff like this... If it isnt fair then there wont be a such thing as a Cinderella story anymore because it will be impossible to match their technology
hey moto_rider_nc... your pointy white hat is showing.
Ha ha. It is so funny that those few people keep saying Stewart has never played the race card when moto_rider_NC plainly stated that they never said that he had . You can bet your sweet a$$ though that after being poor and then getting used to all that money and nice cars and fancy homes (you can see his Dad's mouth water on Bubba's World) Stewart would sell out his own grandma to keep his career intact.
I really wish there wasnt comment sections on these websites so everybody would just shut the fack up. Motocross fans have turned into abunch of pansies that sit at their computer and talk mass amounts of crap. If the AMA had a problem with this during the pre race inspection and post race inspection they would of had it removed just like the gps at a1. The traction control is in his wrist you facking blowhards. Speed channel needs to kick Jeff Emig Ralph Shaheen and Erin Bates the hell out of the TV business. They cant even get the riders first and last name right. I didnt know they were doctors either when they said Grants wrist was broke when he was clearly leaning on it. I hate where this sport is headed to. Once it was a great sport with great fans. Now its turned into abunch of whiney pansies just like this country has become.
Why didn't they mention if there was a physical connection to the black box? That would have ended it for me. Does the sensor connect to standalone recorder? Why did Larry Brooks mention not having a sensor on the front wheel? It sounds like he's interpreting the rule as if it's only illegal on the front wheel, which is kind of how the rule appears at a first glance, but it's illegal on either wheel. Anyone other than Larry Brooks and I'd give them the benefit of the doubt...
Mathes, write more articles, do more podcasts, post more race photos....the fans have too much time on their hands and need something else to talk about. How about those NY Jets! -- FYI I'm not a Jets fan.
First of all James know more about his bike than what stickers are on it. His response to the question shows that L&M wants to fuel the controversy and lead fans to believe they have an unfair advantage and expect James to win. It's a psychological game not an unfair advantage. get over it!
couldnt agree more with stacy_kohut - seems like a big ploy by speed channel to stir the pot and create some drama and inevitably good tv..anything for ratings right?
Why did James act so weird when Erin asked him what it was? All he had to say was that it was a "data acquisition" device, maybe it was traction control...
Here is some more little known factory trickery, Click on the link and scroll down a bit. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/584363-anaheim-supercross-spoiler.html
So he didnt cheat at phoenix but he did or at least tried to at A1
Great story, and youâ
great article, good information.
I'm amazed that even as Matthes says that traction control can come completely from the ignition box (i.e. no wheel sensors), some people say it is a non-issue. Go read MXA's article on this. After seeing what I have read on this topic, I would be surprised if every factory team has not been using some form of it, and not spending a ton of resources on developing the technology further. I would like to know that a rider is using all of his skills and not being aided by electronics that do what a human can't. Stewart fans, don't worry about defending James, let's worry about keeping the racing as even as possible from a technology standpoint.
Motocross is 90% rider. Examples, Carmichael, Stewart, Hannah. Stewart was acting thrown by the question because they are trying to F*&^% with the competition. He could hardly stop laughing. Vargus21 is correct, a single speed sensor is worthless, if the front one is hidden why wouldn't you hide the rear one. What a bunch of rubes. The only traction controll Stewart has is his right wrist and brain and not wanting to sit on the couch for another 9 months!
If any of you idiots think he was cheating you need to be alittle more observant while watching the race. Hes spinning all over the place just like everyone else. 3/4 of you probably dont even know what the hell you were looking at when they showed the video of his back wheel. Cant stand haters like you people
Here are some facts. there was no cheating. there was no punishment for a violation. the AMA is in charge. JGR is a NASCAR team. Supercross live on SPEED is poorly produced. James is faster than everybody.
Fact is, if you are gonna attach sensors or any other kind of electronic devices to your machine, you better expect to have to explain what it is and does, because every one is gonna question it and wonder and speculate if you do not state what it is and does. And the AMA is there to look into any allegations and investigate if it is indeed legal or illegal. And if you're not doing anything wrong or illegal what's the point of getting pissy about it or bend out of shape. Just laugh it off and tell have at it and see for yourself we've done nothing wrong. Only the guilty sweat.
Great story, and youâ
A wheel speed sensor on the front of a dirt bike would be useless. Most of the time under heavy acceleration the front wheel isn't even touching. However a GPS can totally determine rate of speed at an exact location. The biggest benefit of trac. control would be on the starting line.
Great story Mattes - youâ
First: to the idiots who say "if you aint cheatin you aint racin".....do you really want this to become another Nascar....They made it such a soap opera that now it's nothing more than professional wrestling....I've been racing for 35 years and don't cheat and know plenty of people out there with the same philosophy....You should not be allowed to continue your inbreeding.... Bottom line is, get rid of all the sensors and crap...you don't need a gps or wheel sensor, the only thing any team should put on a bike is a RIDER.
If they are trying to develop traction control. I don't want it on my dirtbike! That's half the challange trying to control the beast beneath you. I don't need a computer to do that for me, but thanks though! If i wanted that I would stay at home with my X-box.........
If San Manuel is cheating the AMA would have penalized stewart dont ya think?
IT'S CALLED R & D FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DONT NO !!!! RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT . JUST LEAVE IT ALONE ........EVERYBODY DOES IT..
Larry Brooks is known for being dirty..remember the whole deal back when he was with KTM and the whole deal with Alessi and Tedesco at Glen Helen you know Brooks had a lot to do with that and probably told Alessi to do that and ya the incidents with Stewart and Reed im sure he had something to with also definitely the one in Salt Lake with Chisholm trying to clean Reed out. I am not gonna say Stewart cheated because i dont know what thing was on his bike but it also wouldn't surprise me either knowing the teams past history. Pretty sad that this is what its coming too now reminds me of watching Nascar with people running illegal parts lol
Hey stacy kohut, your pointy little head is showing.LOL For your info my family is bi-racial so a happy STFU and goodnight to you too. Tired of fighting this war of wits with a severely unarmed person like you.
@Unhappy: "As a fan, I demand something happen, be it from the AMA or FIM" Demand what? Are you not going to watch if they don't do anything? Give me a break.
I seem to remember a few years ago CR22 & RC4 being penalized like 25 points each for being over the limit on lead content in their fuel. If TECHNICALLY JS7 broke the rules by having a device that could transmit live, then he broke the rules and he should be penalized 25 points. There is no other answer to this question....AMA where are you...anything else is like the AMA giving RC4 his 25 points back because he said he would walk from the series otherwise....CR22 never got his points back...
This is the dumbest thing ever. Stewart would win on any bike or setup, hands down.
Well if James gets too far behind in points The Larry can always force under contract K Regal to center punch Ryan V at a crucial point in the series,at least we all can watch it... Ever hear Chad talk about The Larry he hates him. But James rode a good race and once again tarnished by the team he must be disapointed inside...
A full-on production rule would solve all of this. If the racers were all on box stock equipment, not only would it remove any possibility of blurring the lines in the rule book but, it would also greatly benefit the consumer who buys the bikes on Monday since the manufacturers would be forced to make their actual bikes (you know, the ones they sell) better.
If a motorcycle has any kind of traction control, you can hear it in the engine. When the traction control activates, the engine will break up and pop until traction is regained. I'm not a stewart fan, but he was not running traction control.
As I understand it, a GPS receiver is just that - a receiver. Unless my understanding of how GPS works is totally incorrect, I don't think that the unit on the bike transmits anything - it only receives signals from satellites to determine its own position - I would think this is legal in the sense of transmitting data. Slippery Slope indeed...
SHUT UP YOU WHINING LITTLE *****ES. "As a fan i demand something be done" Shut up you inbred. The AMA knows when and when not to fine someone and/or the team. He did nothing wrong and is just PLAIN OUT FASTTT. If RV won you poor excuses for human life would try and pick him apart to. Larry Brooks this, Larry Brooks that... shut up the guy is a Team Manager that does R&D just like everyone else who races including trucks, cars, sport bikes even lawn mowers for you red necks out there. Bottom line is if the AMA said he did nothing wrong... he did NOTHING WRONG. Everyone making a big deal about this is probably a Mike Alessi fan anyway. Way to qualify buddy
Results from Phoenix: James Stewart grabbed the holeshot, ran the fastest lap time of the night, and won the main event. Letâ
DMXS Special on Tuesday night! Starts in 30 mins. Just FYI.
Why is everyone so concerned with whats on his bike anyway? He won fair and square. RV rode great also, but just made one mistake. The others are not in there league. Wait till they get to a track where they can actually be agressive and watch the speed that JS7 puts down.I think it is the smartest ive ever seen him as far as calming down on last weekends track. If he would have rode as fast as he can, he would have ended up on the ground just like RV.
"james stewart is a dirty racer and a cheet, always has been and always will be" Z. Simon- Do us ALL a favor and NEVER show up to another race! sincerely, DoubleJ
The media (speed channel) is really messing things up here, stirring up unnecessary drama. This isn't nascar, football, or baseball, it's motocross. I don't give a s**t about all the bs that the race announcers talk about in between races on the live broadcasts. No disrespect to Fro and RC though, but all I want to see is the races. The technology for traction control has been around a long time and teams don't need sensors all over the bikes to use it, it can all be done using the bikes computer and rpms. The 1997 CR250s had a form a traction control built into the ignitions, its nothing new. How about we just worry about the racing.
Unhappy- I demand you also never go to another race, do not watch it on t.v or ever come on this website again! Unfortunatley there is no cure for arrogance but I would suggest taking up golf cause i heard Tiger Woods really is a cheater!
I really just don't want the sport to go here. Pushing the envelope is natural going all the way back to paddle tires. The Voodoo of electronics is real, if you are sensing a parameter it works into a program. Throttle position, counter-shaft torque, rear wheel speed, all would meet the no front wheel sensor rule and would all quite nicely assist the fuel injection to control power. The AMA will need to increase its knowledge at the same rate as the teams or provide efi boxes to the teams which brings us to NASCAR templates and restricter plates. With the importance of good starts in the sport right now we would all be more than a little naive to believe there is no fire behind the smoke.... and the blue brand is the only one getting suspected right now.
I liked the article, informative and interesting. However, it did seem as though you "the press" came out swinging to defend James and his team. Almost along the lines of trying to clarify the situation for the team.
BTW,,,, STEWART WOULD HAVE WON ON A TRIALS BIKE..... HE IS CLEARLY THE FASTEST MAN ON THE PLANET.... FACE THE FACTS...... THE GUY HASNT RACED IN A YEAR AN HE WON...THOSE OTHER GUYS SHOULD HANG THEIR HEADS IN SHAME>>>>>>
I dont understand why this is even being made into a big deal. Just about every 450 in the pits has a button to adjust timing curves. Usually 2 settings. My best guess one for starts one for everything else. Everyone is bending around the rule with that. Leave the drama to Josh Hansen and the morons on The Hills.
bnord15, no Stewie didnot run the fastest lap time. Look again. Some of these comments are dumber than hell. But I like how if someone isnt a Stewie fan then they must be racist. That comment is racist in itself..
Well then maybe you should have wrote the article then! Had it been any other team they would have been defended just as much! But, nope because its Stewart so everyone has to find a reason to degrade him and take away from his skill. Bottom line you still have to ride the bike, and if he does have it they are NOT the only one. So maybe all you ground breaking journalist should go get the scoop!
you could put traction control, wheel sensors, gps. and a monkey holding a can of nos on tedescos, dungys or reeds bike and they wouldn't win. dirt bikes and street bikes are not the same. stewart won fair and square. but there will always be people that will say thats the only reason he won.
This is a great article, however there's still a ton of retards that do not understand and still think JS was cheating. All you idiots have to go back to school and learn to read. Oohhh and also send Erin with them....
Hey Can you talk about this too? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/584363-anaheim-supercross-spoiler.html
hey can you talk about this too 6th post down http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/584363-anaheim-supercross-spoiler.html
THE RV2 STARTING DEVICE
Win # 38* Sorry, I just had to do it! Just Trying to be funny! thought it might break up some of the tension.
Rv had fastest lap in Phoenix. Does that mean the button on his handlebar was for nitrous?? Must of been nitrous how else could he have had the fastest lap time wright??
Traction control ..bah ..... You want to level the playing field between privateers and factory riders and make the racing better instead of 2 or 3 guys running away the whole night? ... How's this for thought. .... . Minimum weight limit for the bike and limit the horsepower in the class..... Sealed ignition boxes straight from the AMA that have to pass tech inspection..... If the seal is broken the rider is DQ'd. It would stop this BS lapping up to 5th crap with the ridiculous $$ factory bikes and level the field ... THE TOP RIDERS WILL STILL COME TO THE FRONT ON THE PACK regardless.
great article. it is just to bad it's not an article on the way technolgy is evolving and were it could lead instead of setting everyone straight on a traction control sensor. i watched the same broadcast everyone else watched and i guess i was one of the few that actually lissened to what was said. never thought it was for traction control but was a sensor for collecting data like was said by everyone on jgr and the speed broadcast team. i guess thats the down fall of your job is no matter the facts you still have people that just don't lissen. and no i'm not a stewart fan. keep up the good work matthes even though it seems you are talking to morons at times.
Did anyone notice that Bubba stays lower over the jumps? I think he's running some kind of Anti-gravity control, secretly installed by Larry Brooks. He's also noticably darker than the other riders witch could be a sign of blood doping. Those sneaky L&M bastards!
Very Good Article thanks for answering the questions everybody was asking..........It says that they had to remove the gps sensor because IT COULD send info to a computer AND be adjusted on the fly. Brooks said that they were looking and tweaking after the race but did anybody look into if they DID in fact adjust on the fly during the race or in practice? Im not hating on Stewart i was just wondering if anyone looked into it or just took his word for it. I wish they all had to ride bikes straight off the showroom floor even though thats not going to happen.
The big thing here is WHY WOULD YOU EVEN WANT A TRACTION CONTROL DEVICE ON A SUPERCROSS BIKE TO BEGIN WITH. Dont you want to be able to break that rear wheel loose at times and really whip that back end around. A traction control device would prevent that. Just taking into consideration what needs to be done sometimes on a supercross track, a traction control device would only slow you down. You may have a better chance to staying upright. But how is that going to help you when you lap times are down. Then the guys like Villopoto and Stewart would be running Ryan Dungy times.
For all of the people saying leave the computers, technology, ect. out of it, should we remove dynos? Can we tell FMF and Pro Circuit to stop using sensors to improve the bike beyond "Human Capabilities"? That's why they are on a dirt bike in the first place! Collecting data to improve is what ANY organization does to improve. Running a rear-wheel sensor to collect information is LEGAL for those of you who obviously can't read the article. To the idiot complaining about the 25 points: Stewart broke no rule and therefor no penalty will be applied. For those of you who also didn't pay attention to the broadcast, JGR was making those comments during practice, not the main event. James Stewart obviously wasn't conspiring with L&M based off his response. It's his first win in a year, he's so excited and want's to talk about that, and Erin and her stupid question starts a whirlwind of controversy. I just wish one of those riders she interviews after a crash will tell her how it is. Stewart rode great: Slid out in his heat race. Poto rode great: Slid out in the main. There was no cheating involved, it was a great article and if the AMA is concerned about the "Slippery Slope" they are free to address it and set some more rules to prevent traction control. But bikes have had computers on them for a looooong time. Like was mentioned earlier, they use computers to figure out gear ratios and rev limiters. AMA should do a demo on Alessi, let him run a full traction control system and see if he makes a main.
It plainly says in this article that Brooks had a gps sending info out. It also says that is ILLEGAL. I guess it is only cheating when you get caught.
These teams sure are riding the razor's edge with what they can get away with. This "grey" area is bad for our sport. I say suspension work & pipes only, stock motors. Even the playing field a little bit.
like johnbobw3 wrote it wouldn't do any good on a supercross bike. you need wheel spin. through the whoops, gasing it in the air to control your bike angle and your landings as well as power slidding the corners. you would eat sh!# if traction control came on when you were skipping the whoops. only way it would work is off the start or if it had some sort of gps to turn it off and on in certain sections. oh i already see this one coming james had a gps on his bike so i guess i didn't help this any.
This article..like James Stewart's reaction to Erin Bate's question, raises more questions than it actually answers.
Great article! But I say bring on all the technology that great teams/faactories can create. I've been a racer for over 30 years and miss the days of the "Factory Bikes". To say that these bike today are some how equal is just plain crazy. The top riders get forks and shocks no one else gets. The top teams blow up DOZENS of engines on dynamometers to find any power edge. They get tranys that are not available to "privateers", unless of course your Chad Reed and the like. If your bike number has 3 digits, chances are your not getting the good stuff... I only wish it was traction control. Then next year it would be standard on my bike and I would enjoy riding just that much more.... Maybe with traction control a few less under paid riders would end up in the emergency room....
If one was surrounded in as much controversy as JS usually is I would expect one to answer Bates' question just as he did. She could have asked if that sensor attached to a particle accelerator and got the same answer. Regardless, it seems like there should be a rule change to prevent data acquisition during competition. Save it for the test track. Otherwise it is just a matter of time before it will be abused. Lastly, wait until JS and RD get off the line together before assuming too much. It's pretty early to put a foot (or other) in your mouth.
Oh man. A brother just cant make it clean out here huh!! James gets a lot of hate just like Obama and the funny part is there is no legit reason for the hate.Some bcoz the guy sat out the outdoor season. Let it go already its 2011 not 1940's.
how did our poor underappreciated president come up in a traction control article? it's really getting crazy out there
Ok, "moto_rider_NC", you didn't say he had ever played that card before, BUT, you DID say that you would "guarantee" that if he were caught "cheating" that he would say he was set up and/or play the race card!!! You "GUARANTEED" us!!! Whatever!!!!! IT'S NOT TRACTION CONTROL PEOPLE!!! let go of it!! IT'S NOT TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!!! Damn!!!!!
I noticed that JGR were running some kind of rear shock hold down at the start on Millsaps bike.. Have not seen this before is it something that is in use? Sureley hold downs are a form of traction control as well, I know not electronic but they do aid traction of the start.
I am def not saying Stewart was cheating at all for who ever read my first post, just saying there was something on the bike. Research & Developement will make better bikes for everyone who is commenting on this article. It wasnt even on his bike in the main, just an empty hole where the sensor used to be. Stewart rode great and its gonna be a great season if everyone keeps riding like they did this past weekend so lets all just take it race by race.
Traction control on dirt bikes? Where are we goin'? I want 2 stroke 250 cc back!
Usually don't say a word, but..Time to speak up-OG style-sorry this is gonna be a long one-(I think DC, Eric Johnson and Matthes will agree)Allow me to vent: Hater's/Poser's read on-RESPECT THE SPORT--Appreciate the fact that we get to witness Stewart/RV/RD and CRtwotwo.Ya all need a history lesson. Call it PASSION101--The Hurricane hangin it out over Gravity Cavity...LaPorte-'82 250World Champ-Red/WhiteYZ...Brad Lackey#6-'82 500World Champ ...O'Show Launching his works Tiddler uphill@the desNations(thechampagne1twofive!!)...ANY photo of David Bailey on a bike...The Dogger@16yrs old on a 3digit FactoryYZ125...RJ-throttle wicked on #25 Honda-holeshot@Carlsbad 500USGP?..Wardy rockin a KX500 w/open face Shoei n Oakley halfmask...Henry-cuz it's Doug Henry...JMB-'91 250MX/SX-500MX Champion...EVERY des Nations Team '85 to 2010...Those above snidbit's gimmie CHILLS--They're all LEDGENDS--you hater's give it a few decades--if you don't gain any RESPECT/PASSION then you don't belong. ARE YA GETTIN IT YET?? ok maybe lil more turn of the century--Tell me you did'nt get chills...everytime the King hucked his NacNac...Ricky kicked that KX damn near upside down with the king lookin over at him-both 3 stories above the triple..APPRECIATE and RESPECT the God given talent these athletes share with us each week...It's true--Lives on the line for your entertainment--Ask Ernesto, Magoo or the Icon himself-David Bailey....You don't have to like 'em, always back your guy to beat the rest, but dont disrespect any of 'em.Yea Hanny's bangin bars w/Eli, so what? A year or 2 from now Eli, the german ROC and Barcia will prob lap him-prob give him a beatdown right now in a National. But Damn ain't it cool to see Lil ' Hanny ride that 250F after all the Sh*#t he took for not training, in it for the money BS all these years?? Lil props--lil respect***Just askin, but do ya hate cuz your jealous?? I know for fact Hansen and Stewart are a few of the WORLDS BEST. Yea Bubba's got all the playboy toy's n 3 or 4 exotic supercars n big ol house with tracks for everything n Dad has ten show cars-He's arguably the best rider in the WORLD-young-single. Personally-I'm unemployed right now, tryin to avoid forclosure on the 21st of this month. I feel Bubba deserves everything he's got--has he personally wronged or ruined your life??Hater's & Poser's--RESPECT-APPRECIATE IT-It's called PASSION-if ya don't got it-GET IT--cuz ya know damn well 25yrs from now you poser's and hater's gonna be braggin to your kids that you saw Bubba ride when he Scrubbed at Budds Creek--Don't you dare do it unless you RESPECT AND APPRECIATE. ********************Sread the>>>>>PASSION!!!!
Great article Mathes...BUT you said they did have GPS sensors on the bike, even though he did not start the night show with them on he did go out on the track, and even with you own words is illegal. So wouldn't common sense be that you are disqualified for the night show?? Would anyone else get the same considerations?? I would guess not but I'm not the AMA
AMA Superbikes have been running trac control for several years. When Yoshi Suz came out with it the same controversies were booming. BUT, I don't look foward to seeing it in SX. It will soon be on all the bike of the big teams.
I don't believe that L&M was using traction control in this race, but I do believe that Brooks would be the first guy to cheat if he thought he could get away with it.
I don't think the race-card should even be brought up. I doubt that that anyone (maybe I am being naive here) hates Bubba because he his black. I think they hate him because he is good. Unfortunately, when someone has alot of success, others get jealous. Think about it... no one hate Jeff Gordon or Jimmy Johnson until they had so much success. If these comments during the broadcast had been made about Nick Wey, do you think they would have been blown out of proportion like this? To those of you that are arrogant enough to make comments about what Stewart (or anyone else) would do or say, like sell his grandmother to keep his success, your arrogance is shocking! Do you think that you are GOD? Do you honestly think that you can see into someone's heart and predict their actions? WOW! It's OK for you to tell us your feelings and opinions, but don't tell us what someone else would do. If you were in the spot light, and someone was dragging your name through the mud, you might be able to understand it better. I am not saying any of this because I have a "bro-mance" going with Stewart or any other rider. Some of us need to get our comments under control, and not make statements that make us look like 5 year olds. Lets enjoy the sport for what it is. If drama and bickering is what you want, may I suggest WWE or The Young and the Restless.
"He's too*****y" "He's to arrogant" He's not th role model for my kids" "He's too fast" "Get over yourself james" " He never wins he always crashes" " Hes got too much money" " I hate that he likes nice cars & nice things" HATER QUOTES OF THE YEAR BLAH BLAH BLAH STFU! RACING SX/MX IS A MENTAL PHYSICAL WAR WHICH NONE OF U IDIOITS CAN DO YOURSELF! QUIT TRYIN TO LIVE THROUGH RIDERS OR GO TRY AND QUALIFY & BEAT JAMES YOURSELF!
Well said moto153!!
...I agree with matt253: for better or worse, technology marches onward...the controversy still rages that the YZ400F rendered gear selection/throttle control/traction skills nearly obsolete---but yet its technology got a massive amount of dads back in the saddle. Sad in an old-school way, cool in a techno-geek way. ---But here to stay, regardless...and probably thereby paving the way for mandated smaller displacement engines for SX. ---Or maybe the SX tracks will become even MORE of a freakin' jump-fest... But I digress...
bubba sounded like obama without his telepromter
What is the big deal??? You still have to ride the bike.......and ride it fast! These sensors are not going to win the race, heart, fitness, and talent is what will win.
ds=dip+$h!t,and you don't want to know what you sound like!
I am going to put some tin foil under my rear caliper at this weekend's race and see if I can get called out. The controversy is what is keeping the buzz going... its something new at each race.
So, by AMA's standards, whatever it was mounted on his rear femder was illegal, PERIOD! Traction control, lap times, data aq, XM radio, whatever it was mounted illegaly and should be removed and investigated. I don't care who's bike it is on. They all need to play by the rules. I honestly don't think it affected the race results, but it damn sure hurt his rep!
I wish all of these idiots on here would quit saying that Dungey would not have won if thisd rider or that rider was there! The fact is, THEY WERE NOT! Stewart crashed out! Villapoto crashed out! Reed crashed out! Grant crashed out! Dungey did not! That is how you win a championship you IDIOTS! If you don't crash out and win, you are the better rider, own up to it. Hell, I could be the champ if I could ride worth a damn, had speed, had cool gear....etc. Get the point. You don't win by what ifs!
I dont understand why everyone is complaining about seperating the "Haves from Have Nots". The Premeir Class in MX and SX is just that. it is not an amature class. JS is not racing the "450cc Stock B Class" at Joe Schmoes MX Park. If i recall correctly it was in the mid 90's when the AMA made the Lites Class (125cc class then) a more privateer friendly class by banning the use of Factory "one off" parts. Every part on the bike had to be something that ANYBODY could walk into a shop a buy. The 250cc Class (Now the Premeir SX class) was left alone because lets face it, if the factorys arent race testing these custom parts somewhere then the development of production bikes would suffer. If any small support team wants to compete in an even playing field they can always race the Lites class. there is no rule that forces a privateer or support team to race the 450 class. gathering data is just fine and should be allowed. besides i doubt james is going to want Yamaha changing his ignition curve on the face of a triple. the GET equipment is available to anybody. people complaining about the cost of the racing are probably the same people that complain that the cost of helmets is too expensive. Racing is an expensive sport, if you cant afford to do it then there is always bench racing i guess...
If it doesn't come from the factory, then it shouldn't be on the bike. They can use data acquisition devices all they want outside of sanctioned races. Convince Yamaha that these devices give the bike an edge. Dealer showrooms start having new bikes with traction control and then James Stewart legally rides a bike with such a device. The same should be said for all of the manufacturers who are considering the idea.
so if all the factories did this and the new bikes next year came with "factory tracion control", that should be legal next year then? brocky2727 it sounds like you are worried about one guy (JS) having a better bike htan anyone else because you are afraid he will win even more. by that logic it would make sense to give everyone else TC but JS, that would make it fair right? i dont think so. Gathering data at the track to make changes before practice, heats, and mains is just a more acurate way of having the mechanic pull the spark plug and changes the jetting in the carb accordingly to try to gain an edge. should we stop letting guys check their spark plug while they are at the track too? gathering data in California doesnt do anything for a race Minnesota. data has to be gathered at the track on race day for it to be accurate. you wouldnt jet your carb for a 100 degree southern california day then go snow riding in Minnesota and expect good results would you? is the stuff way more high tech than it was 10 years ago? yes. will it make for better production bikes in the future? yes. if you put JS and a "have not" on the same exact bike would the "have not" win? i dont htink i really need to answer that one...
I don't know what to believe because I am not a mechanic and have not studied any of these devices. The only thing I really get annoyed by is them saying James is one of the greatest racers of all time. Ummmm how many championships does he have? How old is the guy? Well he has 5 championships and is only 25. Ricky had 16 championships when he retired at age 26!! So how is Jams the greatest racer? Also Jermey McGrath has 72 supercross wins and 7 supercross championships. Stewart has 2. Yes Stewart took time off and had an injury but so did Ricky. All I am saying is he may be the best right now that is racing but don't put him up on the list with those two just yet. He use to be one of my favorite riders until he started letting it get to his head. I use to hate Ricky but he learned so maybe Stewart will get out of this funk and be able to be one of the greatest racers of all time and be a very respectible person.
Uneasy-rider why are u so sensitive about Dungey ?? Hell get it together bud keep your head high! Next year he will be back to #5 and all will be well LOL and If you would have paid attention in the article it sys that the device on the rear fender was in plain view on the rear fender during practice! Dsnt sound like anybodys tryng to hide anything ama asked them to remove it and that was it! Case closed! As i keep saying Do you people realize the AMA tears down the top 3 or 4 bikes after every race to check to make sure everybody is in compliance??
+1 on what 562 said!
I think you guys need to take the tin foil off your heads, shove up your poopers and get a damn life. Conspiracy theorists are a waste of good life. Why the hell are people even worrying about this? Traction control in SX/MX would be as stupid as all the comments posted here. Racing dirt is not the same as Tarmac. If they used TC in Rally cars, Pastrana would have hit a lot more trees. In dirt, some roost is a good thing. Also, anytime you stick your front wheel in the air, your power would be cut. You really want that after you leave the face of a triple a little nose low? Everyone just enjoy one of the greatest seasons we've had in long time and props to Bates for keeping it real and asking questions as stupid as she is.
Traction Control would not be effective for a fast rider. There are times when breaking the rear wheel loose is more effective. For example flat tracking a corner or scrubing or whipping. If you take all the throttle control away from the rider you take away all the imagination and creativity from the rider.
You guys that keep saying Traction Control won't work in sx are thinking of TC as you know it on cars. Control just means control. It means they can make it do what they want given certain conditions. Sure there are things they can't make it do, but I would bet that it is most useful for the all important start. Also in selecting a power map that suits the conditions. From the way we didn't hear from any teams, manufacturers, or even most magazines for a couple days, seems like they are all doing it already.
rule 3"15 A. States that JS' cheated. WTF is DAta needed for other than Traction control??????? does larry need that data to jerk off to? Than what is he doing with it, dirty bastid? Lets hear what Larry's got to say when Brayton and Milsaps come out w/ full traction control. Controlling every Holeshot!~!! JS equals BS, Get rid of him and alessi, and Brooks. And Matthes . Its So easy for me to see. Get Your DAta All During the DAy and Heat races, Put 2 and 2 together, and Set James up with a nice Main Event Holeshot. EFF that. Poto should put him in the cheap seats, he'd get banned from AMA for life tho. Let stewey do whatever, whenever.
I'd talk about this traction control contreversey but i'm going to need to finish this bag of cheese puffs and eat the rest of this extra large pizza.
It is just bewildering to me as to why Larry Brooks has now let five days pass and not himself made a public statement about the situation. It would make sense to me that if the device he was running on JS bike was in fact legal and he has nothing to hide, then he should come out himself and explain what the device is, how it works, and why they are using it, instead of leaving it to the media to do it for him, and letting his name, his race team, and rider's reputations continue to be soiled. Just my two cents...
Traction Control: possible and probable. Done.
Traction control? you guys just like to wine. if you don't enjoy watching the best racers in the world race. don't go to the races.
For all the posters wondering what the advantage would be , my belief would be for the holeshot. Not to be confused with the holeshot device but in addition to it. I think we are almost at the point where a box stock rule for the pros would be practical, removing all this stuff and making the pros utilize the skills and the stock equipment that the Sunday amateur has available from the manufacturer. Unfortunately this would impact pro circuit and the likes. It is not like it is required to have a roll cage installed to race it. The Mechanics can still tune the suspension, just the stock stuff. As it stands right now the only fair fist fight out there appears to be amongst the PC lites riders.
The ONLY advantage would be the holeshot. EVERYwhere else, it would hinder a riders own natural instincts. So they would need a button or somthing to turn it off after the first turn. Try hiding that from officials. I still see foil hats here...
How about this? If it doesn't come on the production model you can't run it at the race. Data aquisition sounds like a good thing for the test track.
RandomPerson you are 100% correct!!!
These guys are always cheating as the saying goes if your winning your cheating some how. Larry was caught 2 years ago standing at the first turn and would start to clap his hands as the gate was being kick for James to get a jump, that is why the front of the gate is covered now. There is no way any non factory rider can run the laps times these guys do with the advantages of these non production machines and equipment. If your not in the industry you have no clue to what is really going on out there to comment.
on one side, there sensors, and as long as they can prove they are by the rules, there good. its evolution of racing, it happens in all forms of racing (except nascar). one the other hand, i kinda want to see the rules keep all sensors off the race bikes, and make the riders work, and not end up like a bunch of evo10 owners with the computer racing the car for you it has so much assistance.
this sport has the most screwed up fans ever. james is a great rider stop trying to take that away from him. I seen the same kind of thing on dungeys bike last year at unadilla near the sprocket side, and no ones says a word. no one is cheating. you are all just jealous that you cant ride like him.
If i'm not mistaken in 2006 Makita Suzuki got cough cheating using illegal fuel! Almost cost RC a supercross championship!
Travis, so did CR. But RC got his points back which was very unfair. Imagine if CR got his points back too and was champion that year. With only 4 titles to Chads 3 (imaginary) would we still be calling him the GOAT?
Traction Control DOES NOT need a front wheel sensor. There's technology out there to provide the circuit closure without the need for a sensor on the front wheel. Let me get one thing straight, James don't work on the bikes so to say he's cheating would be unfair to say. But Larry Brooks knows everything that goes on with this team. Now my demand is that discipline happens before OUR sport of Motocross becomes tanted with rule bending. The AMA needs to keep it a level playing field. This is the top level of the sport! I totally bleed blue, Yamaha fan from head to toe and this crap makes me sick. R&D is for the off season not Raceday and if the issue of Traction Control is wanted to be ok'ed then that's when it happens, not at round 2 of Supercross. James is a great rider but not a clear cut faster one like he use to be. The gap has closed, and I think it's a good thing. Exciting time to be a fan....
Why does some idiot have to bring up skin color? It has nothin' to do with nothin". It only makes the poster out to be a jerk.
Traction control on a motocross bike? are people crazy or don't have a clue about anything. How will that work on the whoops? There is no electronic gizmo that can actively control the rear wheel of a motocross bike, much less when a pro is riding it. This sensor is used for data acquisition to adjust the fuel/spark curves with the bike on the stand. Now adjusting via laptop on the fly during the race is another story. I would be more concerned with an antennae on the bike than a wheel sensor. Ahh but wait then the new curve will have to upload on the bike's computer which will kill the engine, Iâ
RRR think about it This is electronics with limitless possibilities here. Probably they use it for the start or even just the launch while the holeshot device is activated and get a bike length out of the gate. These riders and machines are so close on every parameter that any advantage (especially during the holeshot) is worth it. It would be not activated during jumps and whoops. So I ask you Why Acquire the data unless it is going into a computer program somewhere? I think most readers and posters here would just as soon see the pros on the equipment we buy and that the bike manufacturers market. Us fans would have to lobby the AMA for a SX stock class. Should we start the petitioning here?
Quote from jim marsack, "...Larry was caught 2 years ago standing at the first turn and would start to clap his hands as the gate was being kick for James to get a jump, that is why the front of the gate is covered now..." WHOA! Are u really serious!? So this kind of stuff typica of only Brooks, or is everyone doing it?? ie, even *gasp* Father D himself?? Come on marsack, inquiring minds want to know! This is interesting sheet. (and nope, I do not think that Stewart needed the help, if there was any. Buckwheat is the real deal, irregardless of the ballhair-combers that deify him.)
WELL SAID BD AND MX445!!!!
I have more than likely said to much as it is, however there is alot of B.S. going on and as I was told' "if we D.Q.all the teams cheating we would not have a factory show of riders on the gate" When you see advertisement of Honda, Suzuki etc. as proud sponsors of the events, there donations pad the correct hands. Yes James is a great rider and with out the help thru the years and the approx.16+ individuals each week to keep him prepared he could not contend no matter how good he is. This is a business right down to the promoters and fairness to compete is not a true concern, just needs to look this way.
Listen...I'm an old school MX guy and I've seen all of the "Top Guns" come out of the amateur national championships since the early 80's. No doubt in my mind whatsoever...James Stewart has been the fastest (and arguably the most gifted) rider there has ever been. Granted...he gets injured frequently...which will hamper his championship titles (unlike MC and RC). But he has put in the time (for a long time) and is still maturing as a person and as a rider. As far as cheating? Come on man! James Stewart doesn't need an "advantage" on the competition, but just to make sure the R&D Engineers aren't trying to sneak something past the DMG (formerly AMA Pro Racing) I suggest doing a post-race inspection similar to what NASCAR does. Tear the podium bikes down to their frames, and pull all of the plastic off including the tanks). See what they can find.
Tom I agree with you on the talent issue all the top pros are gifted with an exciting right wrist. I believe that the DMG isn't advanced enough to accurately evaluate what they find on a modern Factory Rocket. The learning curve for all of this technology is so steep that I don't think it would be effective. A stock rule with a claimer ability would be the only way for them to keep it close. This way someone could claim (buy) any riders bike after the race..... heck the factories could probably sell more bikes this way.
mrwhirlwind; Yes, the AMA should police for the legality of these gizmos. but I still think the back wheel sensor was more of an afterthought from their part. The bike can be set up to sensor gear and if RPM increases above a set limit a soft limiter can kick in. these guys probably have been playing for a while now. Even some production bikes has had some sort of wheel spin control function for years, as someone pointed out the 1997 CR250R had ignition function for this. more recent, the 2008 CRF 450R has 3 ignition maps for this purpose. Other manufacturers have to have something. Still after all this speculation I think in the holeshot the name of the game is wheel spin and lots of it, the rider that gets to the highest gear first gets the lead. Dirt propelled rocket baby...
mrwhirlwind; I agree with the stock class being reinstated...and the "claim" rule (which actually was used back in the day (until the factory teams made a gentlemen's agreement to buy each others machines if a privateer or "Joe Shmo" ponied up enough cash at the time. They wanted to keep their technology inside the factory box vans. Brian Lunnis (RJ's) wrench back in the 80's had a great eye for spotting stuff on other teams bikes.
Thanks Tom, you took the words right out of my mouth.
do what nascar does impound the bikes in the top 5 and inspect them after the race thouroghly
Teams don't even tell the truth about the health of riders until caught, why would they tell the truth about this. Who can prove the truth about electronics by just looking at them?
All the talk of James Stewart "cheating" will disappear when it is revealed that the favored rider of those doing the talking are found to have the same kind of equipment on their bikes. Things never change: It's always called "cheating" until your guy gets "caught" with it.
The gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" is already increasing! Come on; $8,000 dirt bikes and that doesn't include suspension fixes, pipes etc. Bring back two strokes to AMA Pro Racing!!
I find it hard to believe that anyone who has ever been to a S/X event can believe that there is some sort of extra equipment on any of the bikes. How close can the average shmoe get to the bikes, much less the TV crews with their HD cameras. There is nowhere to effectively hide anything and given the fact that there would be no quicker way to get the fans to turn on you than to be caught out, it's a far too great a risk to take. I know that "conspiracy theories" are fun but really, how long before some twit "breaks" the story that the "device" was Gub'mint developed at AERA51 and flown to the track by black helicopters manned by illuminati pilots? Relax, Stewart was just the fastest guy that night.
Hmm. no one here talking about the rumor that Dungey had some sort of control on his MXDN bike
Does the AMA do post race bike inspection?
Thanks stacy kohut : WHO WROTE!!!!!! sorry speed, we ain't nascar, and we don't need this soap opera bullsh*t during the broadcasts when world class athletes are risking their lives for our entertainment. it was a slap in the face to stewart, and a slap in the face to the riders. now ya got people talking about traction control instead of the amazing athletic performances by the top 5. there are real stories , real athletes, and real people to cover. speed channel wake up. As a rider and racer. I NEED MY REAR WHEEL TO BREAK LOOSE AND OR SPIN FASTER THAN I AM MOVING! With a TC device, how would one adjust the attitide of flight to raise the front wheel????? The only way this TC thing could work efficiently and SAFELY would be in conjunction with a GPS (This would have to be accurate to the inch. Real riders know how much can happen in a second) and ALTIMETER. IE, real life 3d track map. Even then it would take a mathematical genius to calculate the the program for the ECU. It would be like trying to pick lottery numbers. Just my 2 cents.
I would bet money saying that if a privateer did something like this ama would jump all over them but because its james stewart which is why they are keeping their mouth shut. go andrew short he doesnt cheat
Those are frikkin' awesome photos by Simon Cudby! Wow! Beautiful, Simon!!!
EVERY factory team plays with stuff ,thats how they make our bikes better. It's so ridiculously obvious that the top five riders have bikes and skill enough to do the job without cheating. funny no one said shit when the Yamaha had a carburetor and was at a dissadvantage.
Rules are rules Stewart or not Carmicheal had a fuel issue just a few years back and the AMA as far as I remember fined the team. I think though,not being a Stewart fan at all that the fastest man must see the new talent that has arrived on the track since he seriously raced two years ago. (when he did the outdoors as well) he did have some mis-adventure with Reed and they were both out.If the powers to be believe that there is a violation of the rules then the team will have to pay up and suffer the outcome.
Great article. It's almost like works bikes coming back without actually coming back. I think it'l always be a thing of beauty to watch a good rider ride a bike to it's full potential, but some of this technology I feel can take that beauty away to a point, the riders wont have to use as much input to make the bike react, if that makes any sense. ie: clutch and throttle control and rider skill will be replaced with a control box doing it for them. Just my opinion.
Traction control....you do not need front and rear wheel sensors to make it work, the front wheel sensor argument works well for the street bikes but in the dirt that front wheel is rarely on the ground and moving the same speed as the rear wheel. You would not need to use GPS in conjunction with complicated programming to make it work, because while in the air the throttle position would be correlated with higher engine and wheel speed and the traction control would not have any reason to step in if the rider had to make a correction. Number three, if the system was to do anything it would probably just pull timing, that would be the safest smoothest way to slow down rear wheel spin without causing an abrupt change in the bike's balance while still allowing the rider to accelerate smoothly. There really is no way to effectively set up modern day traction control on a motocross bike that would work like people think it should simply because of the nature of the sport and the different obstacles. However throttle position and rear wheel speed could both be monitored and a subtle form of traction control could be programmed into the bikes with an emphasis on smooth acceleration at certain times....say starts....ala Honda's dual timing curves changed via a button on the bars( closed loop pre-programmed ideal acceleration curves that the ecu can compare with real time ). Set up this way they could easily have the ECU just make tiny adjustments to the fuel and timing curves that would not affect the bike in the air or over the whoops etc., but it could make for a fraction of more rear wheel power to the ground while still allowing for wheelspin. Overall, this is not something that anyone needs to worry about, they're already breaking/bending the rules this is just the first time it's been made public because of who it involves.
dude matt Stewart falls most of the time so if there was something like Traction control. than it must not be helping to much