by Jason Thomas
Breakdown: St. Louis
Monday, March 4, 2013 | 4:30 PM
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Everyone loves a bit of controversy. The season had been fairly mellow thus far in my opinion. There hadn’t been any yelling or fighting amongst the top guys and certainly no red flag restarts in the 450 mains, as of yet. St. Louis brought not only all of that, but also maybe the best race of the 2013 season. I personally feel that the good dirt was the biggest reason for the great racing, but maybe that’s just me. Most of the passes were due to being able to cut back across the inside of the turns and generally having added traction. What the better dirt didn’t cause was the red lights, the red flags and the controversial passes made in the middle. That just made an already crazy race even crazier.
When the red light is turned on, that means don’t jump and don’t pass. Someone has crashed on the triple or near it, and there are riders and/or medical personnel in a compromised position. The red light replaced flaggers standing with red cross flags in an attempt to better grab the attention of the riders, while also keeping the flagger out of harm’s way. I feel it was an improvement, as a flashing light is easier to see and more out of the ordinary, and also gives the riders more time to react. Once that light is on, and you have to roll the triple, it then turns into a race of who can single the jumps the fastest. Many times, passes end up being made in the very next turn. I have seen riders close the gap and then set up a block pass from that opportunity. If the leading rider doesn’t safely charge through the area, he is almost always going to be passed in the next turn. It may not be the most ethical move but it’s effective racing, and these guys are looking for any slight edge they can get.
I have seen this play out many times and I am not sure there is a fix for it. Ideally, the rider up front would be able to put safety first through the red light section and then re-join the race pace once the area is clear. This is not the world we race in, however. I have been the guy in the second position many times in this spot over the years and I always looked for a way to benefit. It’s just the racer mentality. People may argue that racers should be more concerned with safety in this moment and while I may agree, I also know that this is wishful thinking. Racers, especially when battling for the win, will always be more concerned with the race at hand. It’s how we are programmed. We ride, train, study, eat and sleep to be prepared to capitalize on any advantage and in the heat of battle, even the red light situation is, unfortunately, no different.
Plenty of debate, and controversy, followed after Ryan Villopoto's late pass on James Stewart in St. Louis on Saturday.
Simon Cudby photo
When James Stewart slowed, even for a second, in that section, Villopoto gained time (as did Justin Barcia). Villopoto was already fired up from the aggressive passing that had been unfolding so when he rolled over the triple and had a window of opportunity to force it in the next corner, he took it. According to the AMA, they were past the area of danger and into the yellow flag territory, which made the pass legal. I can understand JS7’s frustration as he felt they were still in the danger zone. I can also understand Ryan’s view that he felt they were into the yellows and he had the inside and wasn’t going to give James a chance to close the door. All of these decisions happen in an instant and it is very easy to hit the slow motion button on the DVR over and over and make sweeping conclusions. But they don’t race in slow motion. In the tunnel vision hysteria of main event racing, up front battling for the win, I personally can’t fault RV for going for the W. Passing has been such a chore in 2013, he may have felt this was one of his only chances. Fortune favors the bold, as they say.
Watching the race unfold, I truly feel that Villopoto would have found a way around regardless as he just seemed to have more than everyone else on Saturday. I am sure there will be many, many talks between the AMA and FIM, Feld and the teams on clarifying the rules. Of course the Suzuki teams think the pass was illegal, while Kawasaki and all of Washington thinks it was just clever racing. It will be interesting to see if the rule book is amended moving forward and if the events of Saturday change the face of the championship. I am sure there are some hard feelings floating around but hopefully cooler heads prevail and it leads to more exciting races like we saw in St. Louis. Anyone have any idea how much it would cost to haul that dirt around to every race?
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I haven't seen the 450 race yet, but going by this article,, it may seem that JS could have been sleeping a little when RV got by him? Don't know though.. Jason, they won't need to haul this dirt to Daytona or Minneapolis.. The upper Midwest does have good dirt...
Before anyone rags on me,, I know Daytona is not part of the upper Midwest.. hehehehe...
Couldn't agree more with Jason. RV is desperate to make points up, while James heart really isn't into the championship. James was caught sleeping at the wheel a little, and I bet he doesn't let it happen again.
I understand it, but I think th AMA did Ryan a favor in regard to relegating him back 3 positions. I question that decision. I think he should have been sent back to last like a car race. I'm sure Davi thinks he got screwed too.
I've had guys blitz past me when I'm trying to be a gentleman seeing yellow flags waiving, and courteous to a downed rider. I always think to myself, that guy that just flew by me would probably run his mom over to win a race, he doesn't realize it's not a life changing moment... It's a race. Lets worry more about who could possibly be hurt like McDade did at southwick. Classiest move I have seen yet.
Some guys just don't get it.. I would only hope if I were laying half dead on the track, someone like James Stewart were leading and would be the gentleman he was and slow down so everyone behind him knew I was hurt. I have become a real Stewart fan this winter, he has humbly turned his whole personality around.
I was thinking, Stewart should have made a dead stop at the Red Cross flag. Everyone behind him would have to stop!! That would be funny. Maybe he could have tricked RV into another breach of rule
@rick"-I was thinking, Stewart should have made a dead stop at the Red Cross flag. Everyone behind him would have to stop!! That would be funny. Maybe he could have tricked RV into another breach of rule" now that is funny!
Another key point in this "flag" debacle with James and RV is that there was already a red cross flag and evetual red flag restart in the race already where a rider was penalized (RV of course)...so I dont think Stewart was asleep at the wheel, but was perhaps using a little more "extreme caution" then RV was considering there were yellow and red cross flags...In the heat of the moment it was probably a lot to digest in a short period of time I agree....I think Barcia speeding up almost along side of RV prompted RV to speed up, thus pretty much leading RV to be even with Stewart going into those last few bumps before the turn....... Had stewart moved over to the inside, RV would not have passed....defninatley a bummer deal they would all hope to avoid repeating...I like RV and James, but thought under the circumstances RV could have sucked it up and made a pass stick in the next lap or so....he was clearly the qucikest...but in the end it was a great ride for james....1-2 the last few weeks is where he should be...DAYTONA is next.....I think James and RV will be 1-2 again....not sure what order though
The problem was docking him mid race, as opposed to after the race, which is when penalties are normally handed out. Its a six point swing.
Excellent explanation from a racers point of view ....good dirt makes good racin..always has always will......Rick that actually might be a good idea on the dead stop..lol.sort of a instant red flag start while protecting the downed rider...also the red cross should not be taken lightly or thrown for just any crash......and not many haters are gonna mention much when JS7 does something correct.....most are just WAITING for him to mess up.....
DEAD STOP _ LOL !!!
The best way to benefit from something that is cut and dry, is to try and make it ambiguous. Unfortunately for those people, there are no magic video angles review and no unknown circumstances. RV is behind JS before the second red cross flag and is then side by side with him as they are parallel with the second red cross flag. That's pretty much the epitome of passing on the red cross flag. The fact that he did the same thing earlier should have been a clue to the officials as to which side they should err on. Anyway, if RV wins the championship, I hope he does it by more than 7 points.
Forget the race. Just sitting around waiting for JS to mess up... yep.
while Kawasaki and all of Washington thinks it was just clever racing - classic JT
yeah i do remember barcia coming up fast that prob made poto speed up to.
just made a horrible race to me definitely riders shortened the gap with the flags and poto pass was not right
i have a sour taste that i cant get rid of now after st louis. and its flavor is poto
The white guy never does it, 28 more wins stewart that will hurt the haters more than 10 SX championships.
Supercross is rigged that's why RV didn't get penalized at the end of the race. Monster energy Supercross- Monster energy Kawasaki coinsidence I think so…
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monster energy must really have villapoto's balls in a vice about winning the championship. maybe thats why he raced the way he did in st louis
Great article Jason.
The problem with all of this is RV haters. They make such a big deal out of it because their guy isn;t out there winning or battling for points so they will want to cut RV down no matter what. They turn everything into a conspiracy and make something small a big deal.
RV is a racer and a champion. James is a cry baby still trying to stay relevant.
Truth hurts, but as soon as we get truth and the cry baby stewart fans outta here. We can focus on racing. Stewart fans hate that though, especially when he's been losing the last few years.
glad to see someone who raced SX say it was a good and OK pass. But yet I still see people crying over it.
JT$ stating facts while the "fans" continue to whine from deep within their sunken couches...
My guess is if Barcia's front wheel was not up by RV's feet he would not have gone for the pass there but he really did not have time to think about it, Maybe he was thinking Barcia was going for the pass so it must be OK so i better get up on JS?? Who knows but not much time to think and also the pass took place in the corner so they were thru the section.
billc you could cearly see a red and white flagger after that turn on left side of track closest to camera. it came into view when poto was riding right beside stewart
im no fanboy but i didnt like that pass. the flag situation made for a bad race they definitely need to come up with something better
What gets me is there is plenty of evidence showing that RV's pass was legal and the actual illegal pass was made by Stewart in the previous corner. There is a picture showing that the RED flashing light was turned on at the entrance to the corner where Stewart block passed RV. So between the red flashing light in the corner and the first red cross flag, Stewart block passed RV. On the other hand I have also seen a picture showing that as RV and Stewart were passing the last yellow flag of the section that Stewart still had a front wheel ahead of RV. Making the pass totally legal. Concerning the Alessi pass I was confused on that one because I thought they had cleared the section of concern and had gone back to racing when RV passed him. They need some sort of signal showing that it is ok to go back to full speed IMO.
And the condemnation of RV by some fans continues while Stewart's pass/takeout attempt under red lights and flags in the previous corner continues to be overlooked...
doesnt matter even if it was legit, the situation screwed up the racing
maybe i should change my name to villatrolldoh i have posted way to much
The season finally has some excitement regardless of your take on it!! Been waiting for this all year. Cant wait for Daytona...
What gets me is there is plenty of evidence showing that RV's pass was legal and the actual illegal pass was made by Stewart in the previous corner. There is a picture showing that the RED flashing light was turned on at the entrance to the corner where Stewart block passed RV. So between the red flashing light in the corner and the first red cross flag, Stewart block passed RV. On the other hand I have also seen a picture showing that as RV and Stewart were passing the last yellow flag of the section that Stewart still had a front wheel ahead of RV. Making the pass totally legal. Concerning the Alessi pass I was confused on that one because I thought they had cleared the section of concern and had gone back to racing when RV passed him. They need some sort of signal showing that it is ok to go back to full speed IMO.
Humby...go to vitalmx forums and it will all be explained to you. Lots of pics to see so we'll see you in about 2 hours kid.
retardcross? there was no flags in the corner, only after the corner, they have red flags in the turn before the triple so the riders dont come flying out of the corner into track crew and riders.
@coolhand, Been to Vital. Didn't get much out of it. I don't need any explanation. You have your opinion I am sure and I have mine. P.S. not a kid.
It was just an unfortunate racing incident... great write up by JT. When it happened I was screaming WTF... as I thought the pass was really not at the right moment. Rules are rules, and thhis might have even fallen into that grey area, as I believe even RV said himself that you can't pass on the whole straight when a red flag is shown. None the less, it is what it is, RV was definately the fastest that night and most likely would have made the pass anyway.
But... and there is always a but... I think it makes the AMA look like a complete joke when they are going to dock RV 3 spots at the end of the race, like the rules clearly state, they he someway changes their decision like someone trying to get out of a speeding ticket. How is that possible? Are rules in the rulebook now negotiable?
the dumbest thing is everyone on here is stating they didnt like the pass it was not good racing etc. and some peoples response is we are just villapoto haters or stewtards
Simple: RV made an illegal pass and the sanctioning body(true to their past history of favoritism) didn't penalize him. I can't believe I'm saying this but I hope Stewie kicks butt next week...except for the Dunge....
@RickAmatuzio--After reading your post the last few weeks, its obvious you are a big Stewart fan and that is fine.. But you really believe RV should have been penalized 20 spots for his first infraction??? 20 positions really?? There is no way you really believe that.. Especially for a rider with no infractions ever and made a mistake in the heat of a race like that.. That is just silly... Stewart has pulled way more dangerous moves than that.. he has pulled onto the track in front of guys. he has pulled onto the track and landed on guys, crashed and taken guys out.. Have you ever said he should be punished for his infractions?? Those are just as dangerous.. I bet you havent..dont let your feelings for RV and Stewart cloud rational thinking.. 3 positions is kinda the norm... The AMA can be kinda lenient anyways.. They didnt even dock Barcia last year when he roosted the on track medic.. And you want RV docked 20 positions?? Get real.. I would stand by that statement no matter who the rider was under the same circumstances..
@RCRDDW--RV did get penalized for the illegal pass.. 3 positions on the restart.. Its the ONLY illegal pass he made.. Its the only illegal thing he has ever done..
@preston--that took alot of balls for you of all people to call someone a Fake Fan..
The cake for most mental comments will continue to be those that that make a connection between Monster and RV not being penalized. Once again to have such a thought.......but then to have the lack of a clue to post it somewhere?
Can't wait for the outdoors when Red Bull will exact its revenge and allow James and Dungey to cut the track every week. Really?
Obviously the rule is either unclear or Villadodo don't care about rules. Stewart thought that the red still applied all the way to the corner. RV pulled up alongside of JS in that straight. I think the rule should be set up so that they remain under red until the end of the section or until a green flag is waved. Everybody says it doesn't make a difference because Villadodo would have passed him anyway but you never know what would have happened so you can assume anything like that, to do so is stupid. And who invented the "docking 3 positions" rule? Is this an FIM rule? Even RC thought it was a one lap penalty. I think the ruling should be if you are in the top ten you get docked ten positions and if you are in the bottom ten you get docked 3 positions. On a second violation in the same day it should be a one lap penalty and probation for the rest of the series. These guys need to learn safety is crucial right now. Sorry Jason Thomas but I disagree with you. I don't care what anybody says, racers need to be a little bit more concerned with the safety aspect and respect of the red cross flag more than the race. We have lost too many athletes in our sport to either paralysis, career ending injury, or worse--death in the last few years. How can they not be more concerned about safety? In my opinion RV should have penalized a lap. If it would have been CR, RD, JS, or DM I would say the same thing.
If Stewart was in fact screwed and if he is in fact the fmotp it should have been short work to just get him right back
Instead he turned into a crybaby as if he wanted to call a time-out and got passed by barcia and reed nearly got him before he realized he was still in a race
I just had to take another looks at the pass and it sure looked fair to me. They stated the section almost side by side and Villopoto had the inside line going into the next corner. RV had the inside line going through the corner at the same speed. The pass was inevitable.
I like the article, but competitive passion and technicalities aside , it was a cheap move.
Can you imagine if Barcia had been passed like that ? He'd still be roosting people.
rccrdw- can you explain JS passing the blinking red light going into the corner and passing RV. THE rules CLEARLY say NO passing after the blinking red light.
I await your answer
Mofo what's your deal anyway? No, I am not a Stewart fan. I couldn't stand him until he has been humbled, but with him missing I realized how important he is to the sport. He is fun to watch and great to have around. I am sticking up for him because of what I believe..
You can sit here an pick out anything any rider has done wrong all night but that doesn't really pertain to this at all. You said being docked 3 positions is the norm?? How so when it's never been done in the history of Supercross?
Usually a rider is black flagged, or points are removed AFTER THE RACE. If Stewart or canard jumped on a Red Cross, I'd say send them to the back of the pack as well. It's called deterance, want an example?? The AMA should make a new rule that says anyone that passes on a Red Cross gets 3 fingers chopped off. I bet it won't ever happen again. The safety rules are the single most important aspect of SX and anyone that doesn't adhere doesn't have enough respect. RV still would have made his way inside the top 10 regardless. He is darn lucky the AMA didn't dock him 10 points after the race.
I'm a fan and friend of all the riders, I like RV just as much as James. I want all of them to win. It just so Happens I like the underdog, and since morons like you think Stewart can't go fast anymore, it makes me want him to win even more. Know why? Because I know darn well he has more speed in the tank than anyone in SX, he just can't show it right now with injuries, training, luck and everything else. The dude hasn't hung it out yet this year and I miss that.
Don't judge me based on who I am a fan of, that's moronic. I am a universal fan.. One with an open mind, and an understanding of what it's like ride a bike. I've been injured once myself, maybe twice.. It sucks.
Where are all the Milsaps' fans at? That's right all the Rv lovers are classifying them as Stewtards. The thing that boggles me the most is that no one has made any mention about how bashed up is Davi's right hand? Is he going to be able to keep competing for podiums? Come on racer x let's get on with the rule news instead of a BS rule that is open for interpretation.
I'm not a fan of Jason Thomas, who wrote his article. It was raining at milville in probably 2002, he was riding a white Subway bike. He cleaned me out in the corner before collarbone and our bikes were stuck together on top of me for 15min in the rain. They should have sent him to the back too...
Jerk off JT. He beat me out in the LCQ after than too which really pissed me off. I haven't forgotten that.. Good ole days two stroke style
Great article JT. Best explanation yet!
By the way, who cares about RV and Stewart.. They finished healthy. How about we hear how Kyle Chisholm and MILLSAPS are doing? I hope they aren't hurt.. That's news I'd like to hear instead of complaining about a flag.
Regardless of who was leading and who made the pass, it was not a "classy" move. I much prefer to see the "best" (fastest) guy win, fair and square. JS7 slowed down because he felt that was what he was supposed to do. RV did not. RV sure seemed faster, but he took advantage of another riders judgement as to when safety was no longer an issue, who was the leader at the time. Taking advantage of the rules (if this is what the case was..though we will never know) is LEGAL, but it is not always right.
Seems like I saw RC (long time ago) slow up to let MC by as RC had taken him out with a block pass that derailed him (MC), and then proceeded to pass him again in a clean move. Very classy. At that point RC deserved to win the race, because he was the fastest, and was proving it by being ultra fair. I was a MC fan, but my guy lost to a better rider that night.
The flag system was not intended to give riders an advantage......
Many of you guys need to get over being fans of certain riders and see the facts. It is not about who you like in circumstances like this one, it is about what is right, not who you like.
I am growing weary of the obvious "haters" mentality so many of the posters here have. There should be more "moderators" here. It would make these forums sections a much better asset.
@everyone- Why can't we all just get along.
thank you $JT and Claxton......i can go to bed now.
also available soon
WWGJDO
RIP GJ
JR
RD
EG
SE
KR
that is Keney Roberts...or Ken Roxcen....KR
WWKRDO
or
WWDASL ...or WWDACDO?
Its just a racing thang dont get your panties in a bunch, tough guys. Move on!
JS7 and RV will both go down in history as two of the greatest riders that ever lived.
All of you sheet talkers and haters are unworthy to like their boots, much less even so much as touch their bikes. Get over yourselves.
When RV passed MA he was in 4th and passed into 3rd it seems he should have been put into 7th on the restart rather than giving him his pass on MA. If they are going to go to where he ended up after his illegal passes he should have gone by everyone and then restarted 3rd.
@Preston, I agree with u, @Persona why don't just leave & never come back along with therealmofo also! Nobody wants to read your BS!
I'm waiting for a man-on-the-street poll from Nairobi to let them weigh in on the fairness of the AMA ruling...but seriously, beating a dead horse might make the beater feel good, but that horse is dead and he could care less.
Great post Mr, Thomas!
Firstly I commend Feld & Dirt Works on a far better track! Thanks for listening to your audience......keep up the good work once you leave Daytona,,,,,,,I love
Daytona one of my favourites on the Supercross tour. (Brings a taste of the outdoors early....), RV Reed & JS7 will shine this weekend and are my picks for the podium....not sure in what order...as well Mr. Wilson will show he is not fooling around with this East coast Championship and is not sitting lightly on being the bridesmaid. - He will flat out kill it come Saturday.
I will say I think the AMA should do one final review of RV's pass under the Ambulance flag that went right into yellow.....-3 positions should be the ruling? in my opinion I do not think this will affect the final outcome of the championship.
RV looks on fire again..... and maybe him & Reed have put the air fork testing on hold till outdoors for now? and have gotten back to business and have that feel they are accustomed to again.....
Honestly I think the AMA needs to amend.....It is only a matter of -7 points for
RV at the end of the day just over 1/2 way through.....anything can happen in any given race and may the best man Win.
Not sure how Feld & Dirt works maintains the dirt for each event (whether it's stored under canopy...left over from a monster jam, recycled year to year?) but add in some sand and local mix?, for the best traction and durability possible.
Have to keep the racing exiting by creating sections and multiple lines a faster rider can pass on.....
Another week in this great Sport of ours.
Villo and Stew re-match at Daytona? If so, it can be argued that Stew will take it ....
I'll tell you what there should be a penalty for. Taking a fake swig out of an empty Monster Rockstar Energy Milk can on the podium
Everyone is focusing on the pass RV made on Stewart, How about the pass Stewart made on RV. If you watch the race and watch as they are coming up on the corner at the top part of the track going into the corner you can clearly see red flashing lights, This is before they get to the corner, Yet Stewart clearly disregards these lights and makes a jump to the inside to make a cheap block pass on RV. RV's pass on Stewart should be irrelevant as Stewart should have never been in front of him.
DRHLRacing wrote: The white guy never does it, 28 more wins stewart that will hurt the haters more than 10 SX championships.
WTF???? You inbred porch monkey. Don't get your way and you whip out the race card. Yeah, what's new !!!!!!
I both like and dislike this article. It's very insightful from a racer's point of view. On the other hand it shows what a lack of respect most racers have for not only the rules but other fellow racers who could be on the track injured. Kind of sad really.
BTW, isn't it interesting how RV goes for years with no controversy, nobody really even talking about him while he "quietly racked up the wins". Last two weeks the R and the V on my keybord had the paint worn off of them.
theonlymofo wrote: @preston--that took alot of balls for you of all people to call someone a Fake Fan.
More like lots of stupid. Preston has stupid coming out his ears. He's also got a pic of #7 which he sexually abuses every nite before sleepy time. LOL.
RCRDDW get real, Way you hate RV so much?? Cuz Barcia can't beat him?? what he did was ok so why do you keep saying it was not??
jw621557, You are a piece, You tell us what YOU think the rules should be then tell others they are wrong!! The RULE is what the book says and RV did NOT break the ruls so give it a rest.
Oh lord I woke up and battle is still going on. Racer X is going to run out of hard drive space today..
How about Roczen racing Daytona? Maybe he can mix things up..
"Bush did it!! It's Bushs' fault!!"
Jjbigfly, that was Anaheim. Carmichael moved over and let McGrath back past and McGrath actually won the race. Bailey said Carmichael "deposited a seasons worth of good karma with that move", and RC won the rest of the races. It agree it was classy, and RC was being very respectful of the 7 time champ.
I agree with you, the RV pass was probably legit, but not a very classy move from a champion. Paybacks a bitc@, and it's possible it may come back to get him I.e. "the golden rule".
The fake swig out of the Monster can is classic!! I agree, send that rider to the back of the line next race for taking the fake swig!!! That's great
rickamatuzio: Thanks for that info.......My old brain thought RC won.
@Rickamatuzio--I am a moron because I disagree with you?? I used to think you had a little intellegence but I see you are just an ignorant fool... And tell me when I have EVER said Stewart couldnt ride or win??? I said he would never win another title.. And so far I am dead on, but I also said he will get his wins, said it several times.. I have no problems with Stewart, just some of his excuse making Stewtard fans.. But I DO NOT think the sport needs him either, this sport doesnt need any single rider.. It survived without Stewart and RV for a whole summer, and did fine.. Its sad to see you go the way of other Stewtards with the name calling and all.. I used to think you were a grown up..
And you say RV's pass wasnt very "classy", but the block pass by Stew in the turn AFTER the red light were on was alright and "classy" ... wow, how hypocritical was that??
When you are right behind someone with half the race to go don't come crying about losing when you get yourself gapped. How soon you all forget RV came from 6th to smoke your favorites and win going away. Get on the gas or go get in your bus and cry.
SHUT UP, "realmofo"......just SHUT UP!!